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Scott Seltzer -

What the heck is juggling anyway? Erik knows!

The Void - - Parent

I disagreed immediately. I mean, why would such a smart fellow choose to film in portrait?
— The Void (@TheVoidTLMB) July 14, 2017

I agreed with the preamble, but it got problematic when the actual definition started. But is such a long definition useful?

barnesy - - Parent

Yeah, TL;DW.

I followed a little of the Facebook discussion about how this definition had been whittled down to mere pages (or was it reams?). I'll have a look at that if it appears but I don't consider a 15 minute video to be information, especially one which didn't seem to yield a point when I skimmed through it

Little Paul - - Parent

Far TL; Can't be bothered to W - but:

Is a definition even useful?

Definitions usually only serve so you can point at things which don't fit the definition and exclude them. Something I haven't been interested in doing with "juggling" for a while

lukeburrage - - Parent

I like the idea of exploring the boundaries of a concept, as it lets you find areas that haven't been explored yet. However, defining what the word juggling means is a different exercise of defining what "juggling is", or can be. Completing the first step is probably useful before beginning the second step.

However, if I'm to watch a long video, it has to be more interesting than that in the first minute for me to continue on with it.

Mike Moore - - Parent

For those who find this video too long to be palatable, start here:

Ameron Rosvall - - Parent

And here is a summary of the definition, which may or may not make sense unless you watch the whole thing.

"Juggling is a genre of activities which are related to the default form. The default form of juggling is the 3 ball cascade."

Topic of discussion: is the default form really the 3 ball cascade?

Orinoco - - Parent

I am now tempted to watch the whole thing because that is not something I'd expect from Erik. There must be a lot more to it than that.

I always use the definition: "Doing what doesn't need to be done in the most difficult way possible."

I've tried to find the source of this definition a few times. Earliest reference I can find is from Jerry Carson in 2001, which is almost certainly where I picked it up from originally. However, Jerry's message suggests it comes from further back.

peterbone - - Parent

Wouldn't that definition include many other activities such as skateboarding, rock climbing and base jumping?

ChrisD - - Parent

Yep, and Brexit.

lukeburrage -

The Void - - Parent

Thanks for having filmed all that old stuff, and thanks for this video. Amazed at how many of those I was at.

The Void - - Parent


Hairy - - Parent

Thanks Luke. That was great.

bad1dobby -

New vids at JTV

A quick plug - there's a poster at JTV ("Belette") who is currently uploading lots of vids (20+ in July, so far) from a few of my favourite sources:
- Festival Mondial de Cirque de Demain
- Le Plus Grand Cabaret du Monde
- Monte Carlo Circus Festival

The clips tend to be from around 15 years ago, so it's not cutting edge stuff, but if, like me, you like high quality acts "off of the telly", here's the channel.

The Void - - Parent

Yep. I can't keep up with watching them all!

bad1dobby - - Parent

Hey Void, when I try to 'compose' in JTV-Mail I get >>> J-mail Disabled! <<< . Does this mean I have something switched off in my settings, or is the mail service no longer active?

The Void - - Parent

It's not you, it's site-wide. Unfortunately, it was being heavily abused by spammers, so we disabled it. It's something we're looking at fixing later this year, along with other long-overdue updates.

bad1dobby - - Parent

OK ta.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thanks for the heads up! I watched quite some already, but hadn't realized they were all uploaded by the same person!

Alice -

Leeds Juggling Convention Provisional date Sat 18th Nov
We have provisionally booked LJC for Sat 18th Nov, same venue as last 5 years, St Mary's school Menston. Date is provisional until School exam dates are confirmed but the school have said "95% certain" so add to your diaries.(in pencil!). Will let you know as soon as confirmed in ink.

Juggler Share -

Juggling edge Juggler Share
Hello Juggling Edge! I posted here asking for advice on providing value to the juggling community some time ago. I was met with better advice and suggestions than anywhere else! I've since been providing value to the juggling community on our Juggler Share Instagram and Facebook Page. We share the tricks of incredibly talented jugglers, whether they're popular or not. We hope to shed light on unknown jugglers and provide new jugglers with great and sometimes well known jugglers to inspire themselves with. I have focused less on growing the website while I've been adding value through social media. I've decided to get back to the website now that I've found how I'd like to create value within the juggling community. I'm going to be focusing on a sharing our Featured Jugglers in a blog format where they share their inspiring stories. We will reference our social media throughout the website and hope to soon add giveaways,competitions, and more opportunity for sponsorship. If you've read this far I'd love your feedback on the direction of the website and even ideas for the direction of our social media if you have them. Thank you so much! If you have something blunt to say about what we're doing with Juggler Share please don't be afraid to tell us. Sometimes what's blunt is what I need to hear the most. it's alright, and I will always appreciate your taking the time to write.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Hey Zack,

I think the sharing you do on Instagram is really cool, and with 2800 followers in just 2 months time, it seems others think so too!

First bit of advice: When you're asking for advice, perhaps do so on your own account. Of course you can have a brand name, but here I'd prefer to talk to a person than to an anonymous entity who speaks in plural "we". If it were me, I'd change that on your website "about" page too.

I had that same thought when I got your message with your offer to feature me on your website. Free promotion is cool, but I get more excited to respond to a personal message from a real person. The follow up messages were much nicer!

Now about featuring jugglers on your website:
I think the most important job if you're going to feature jugglers, is making sure that these jugglers are actually being seen. By featuring them on a platform which jugglers already regularly visit, such as instagram and facebook, you're making this easy. If you want to direct your audience to another platform, such as your website, you'll need to provide some content which you can't share anywhere else. If you're going to stick with a single paragraph and a picture, why not create a facebook page for this? I would not regularly check out your website, but I would follow your page in my feed, just like I do with your instagram account.

I don't believe much in giveaways. Unless you're making money by promoting the props you're giving away, or you're having something actually valuable (big store credit in a store with a broad range of goods), I wouldn't do them. I myself am happy with the props I have, and new stuff would just end up in the shelf. Every juggler has different needs, and knows best how to cater them themselves. On top of that it's a lot of hassle with money, sponsorships, shipping worldwide and producing trash.

Competitions can be nice, though I like to prefer to think of "challenges". People need to be motivated to participate, not motivated to win. Think of challenges which are not commonly recorded, but do stretch the technical or creative range of the participants. For example, NORWIK ran a challenge to try to do the slowest 100 catches of 5 balls. Even though many people knew they didn't have a chance of winning, I'm sure many people tried themselves to see how far they could get, and improve. I sure did! Creative challenges are the best, because seeing different "solutions" to the problem makes it worth watching all of the entries. In a technical challenge, watching the winner should suffice.
Announcing a winner is optional, prizes are unnecessary. If your challenge ideas are interesting enough, people will enjoy to participate either way.

And at last, some self promotion:
If you want people to know more about cool jugglers, you can also promote other content that tries to do so ;). Feel free to post about Juggle Jabber episodes if you feel that this would benefit your audience.

Good luck!

Juggler Share - - Parent

Your feedback is pure gold Daniel Simu! I will absolutely talk to people with "I" rather than "we". I've been shying away from saying "I", I guess because I wanted Juggler Share to appear larger in size. It is a "we" effort though, because there are 3 other people involved (Chelsi, Kennedy, and Makanahei) in helping create. I guess a happy medium would be to refer to myself as an editor at Juggler Share and then just talk as myself. I'll checkout my about page and see how it's sounding. Thanks for pointing that out. And I'm glad you enjoyed my messages. I always like to follow up with genuine responses to bios given to me. I read each one before I respond. What you say about featuring jugglers on a Facebook page is an eye opening perspective. I'm going to highly consider switching the bio portion largely to Facebook and adding more content to the bios on my website. And we do have a Facebook page ;) check us out at Juggler Share, trying to get to 1k likes!!
I'd love to promote props and be able to give them away with companies footing the bill. I've talked to many big companies like: Play, Jac Products, Higgins Brothers, etc. but I haven't been able to seal the deal. I'm highly considering becoming a manufacturer myself honestly. Some may think that's crazy, but I'm a competitor by heart.
Now, what you say about challenges and watching a winner is the prize. This is PURE GOLD. It may seem very obvious to some, but what you said coupled with the Nowiks example has gotten my wheels turning.. :)
And I will absolutely mention Juggle Jabber! I think you're a celebrity doing that show and it's what I'd love to do myself! Thank you so much for your perspective. Your advice and time writing this comment is so appreciated and priceless to me.
-Zack Ward

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I've been thinking about those challenges for longer than just today. To further explain my idea, here are some challenge suggestions which I just made up. Feel free to take from them if you like.

I'm looking for things that are relatively accessible (anyone can enter), original (you wouldn't have tried it without the challenge suggesting it), yet interesting (you'd want to try, and see how other people do it)

> Find the most interesting ways to get from juggling 3 to juggling 4 balls
> Make up a trick involving at least one object that changes its shape when thrown (such as something flexible or very soft)
> Make up tricks in which your juggling clubs hit each other
> Which 3 (or more) skills can you do at the same time? (juggling, spinning, balancing, yoyoing, rope skipping, you name it!)
> Film yourself juggling in a location, environment or situation which makes the juggling harder
> Grab a partner and make a 1 prop passing routine!
> What tricks can you do with a diabolo, tangled up in the strings?
> What's your best trick involving a behind the back throw or/and catch?
> Make up a trick involving 10 balls
> How many props can you stack up on a club, balanced on your face?
> Make up a 3 prop trick involving your elbows in some way
> Find the most interesting way to collect from a 5 prop cascade.

Orinoco - - Parent

If you go down the challenge route it might be worth researching past efforts.

You are probably already aware of David Cain's Dream Tricks Challenge which is focused on encouraging people to push the boundaries. As Daniel has alluded to in his earlier posts try to make your challenges something different.

WJVF was a tongue in cheek 'organisation' of rec.jugglers around 2005 (whatever happened to Arron Gregg?).

Also collaboration is just as good as competition & the BKA regularly do collaboration videos, the Juggletween project was very nice too.

Juggler Share - - Parent

Thank you for giving me examples of past Challenges. I will be diving into the challenge route you've both described to me. I'm excited for the future. Both yours and Daniel Simu's feedback are priceless to me. I want to be able to help other jugglers in the future the same way you're both helping me! I do my best to help new jugglers in my Juggler Share posts. Thanks for all you do for the juggling community!

Juggler Share - - Parent

Thank you for the wealth of challenge examples! Don't be surprised if I DO use them! I will be experimenting with moving my blog idea to my Facebook page to provide more value there because of what you've suggested. I will let you know how it goes! Thanks again :)

Orinoco - - Parent

Definitely seconded on using 'I' instead of 'we'. People are much more open to & forgiving towards individuals than organisations (& a big hello to the IJA & WJF!)

peterbone -

Tendonitis solutions? So having moved to a house with a high ceiling, the inevitable has happened. I've over done the numbers juggling and now have elbow pain in my right arm (inner elbow). Especially bad since the BJC. I've not work on anything over 7 balls since the BJC. Lately I've not been doing much juggling at all but it doesn't seem to be getting better. I've not seen anyone about it yet, but thinking I probably should. Would a GP actually be of any use for this? Are my numbers juggling days over?

barnesy - - Parent

I went to my GP when I was in need of physiotherapy (and still in the UK). I didn't have high hopes. But she took the problem seriously and referred me to a physiotherapist without fuss.

That's my anecdata, and unrelated to your problem, but I'd definitely seek help. I think perhaps you can refer yourself too, but I don't know how that works in the UK. Maybe Alby will be along soon...

barnesy - - Parent

Of course I've just mentioned physiotherapy and I don't know what a proper treatment might be in this case, but yeah: Go ask.

peterbone - - Parent

Thanks. I'm not sure what your physiotherapy was relating to. One of the problems I foresee is that my issue is not debilitating at all for normal everyday activities. It's a sports injury that only hinders my juggling. That's why I'd be concerned that a GP would not take it seriously or would simply tell me to stop. Probably means that I'm unlikely to get any help on the NHS.

barnesy - - Parent

Well that's why I was surprised. I was suffering from shoulder problems caused by bad posture and made worse by bad juggling form. My worries were similar to yours but turned out to be unfounded. Your mileage may vary etc.

peterbone - - Parent

OK, but did it cause problems with other tasks? The last few days I was moving furniture around, removing doors and carrying them around with no problems. Then I did a bit of 5 clubs and 7 balls and got pain afterwards and the next day.

barnesy - - Parent

Yes, it was causing occasional problems with general movement. But my GP, who I saw when the problem wasnt causing pain, wanted to refer me because I had said it was keeping me from juggling. Of course I went in there talking about sometimes not being able to stand up, but then the conversation moved into talk of my doubts about wanting to talk to a Dr about juggling.

And yeah, I waited months for an NHS physio. Was pleased with the treatment I got in the end.

peterbone - - Parent

Thanks, I've just emailed my local NHS physiotherapist about self referral.

Al_Bee - - Parent

Hi. I'm sure I'll add to this later but if GP doesn't take it seriously then ask them directly for physio referral. Round my way people are self referring to NHS physio. There's a wait but you'd still get seen. Failing that get an appt at a sports physio - local costs here are between £35 and £50 for an initial assessment. Quicker and easier and no Dr referral needed.

peterbone - - Parent

Thanks. I think a sports physio is the way to go. Sounds like it could get expensive though.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I don't know how these things work in the UK, but I indeed never get any good advice from "normal" doctors and physio therapists. They tell me to stop, or they tell me it's not a big deal, even though it's my job to perform.
For anything I'll go to my sports physiotherapist, which is the one every circus artist goes to in Rotterdam. He has so many clients from the circus school that I always meet friends when I'm there... But any sports physio might be able to take your request seriously?

Austin - - Parent

That sucks so bad :( I find it strange you got it in the elbow- all other jugglers I know incuding myself have only ever got it in the wrist. My only real suggestion is to perhaps find the lightest versions of all the props you can get- for instance I know of several people who never got problems again after switching to Norwiks.

peterbone - - Parent

I think the damage was done with 11 ball training. It's the speed and sudden change in direction of the upper arm, not the weight of the props.

peterbone - - Parent

* lower arm

Austin - - Parent

Oh ok that makes sense... I don't practice numbers because I find they are very straining. Maybe let it recover and the only work on 5-7 ball patterns?

Alice - - Parent

Yes you can go to your GP about this ( speaking as one), worth asking about physio first, if your GP has this( quite new cross the country) you may be able to book in directly.
It sounds like you may have golfers' elbow, (without seeing you.) if so there are good excerises on The Summit Medical Group website

peterbone - - Parent

Thanks. The web page looks useful. If it helps diagnosis, pain usually happens when I face my palm upwards and tense my bicep.

Little Paul - - Parent

Peter, what is it going to cost you to see a GP in person?


So what have you got to lose by trying. Give the NHS a chance, you live in a first world country with a health service that is free at the point of use - so why are you messing about with text based remote diagnosis over the internet?

peterbone - - Parent

I wouldn't rely on text based diagnosis exclusively. I've already contacted an NHS physio as I said. My local GP is very busy and I don't want to take up their time if I can go straight to a physio. Normally if I want to see the GP I call as soon as the phone lines open, wait 10 minutes to reach the front of the queue and then get told that there are no appointments left for today and to try again tomorrow, unless it's a serious problem, which this isn't. It may take several weeks to get to see a physio, so any exercises that may help in the meantime are helpful.

Little Paul - - Parent

Your GP doesn't offer non-emergency appointments? You can't book an appointment for 2 weeks time?

Sounds a bit unusual for a GP

Scott Seltzer - I'd be interested to hear how Jon's 3 ball headbounce is going...

JonPeat - - Parent

Regrettably I have not been able to devote much meaningful practise time towards my 3 ball headbounce... ;-)

Thank you again to the Manchester team for putting on a great convention!

Here is a hashtag! #MJCOT

Cheers Jon

7b_wizard -

Which non-juggling exercises are there to keep a beat, a tact endured well in beat?
  Different moods make different inner or mind's speeds; pulse, heartbeat and breathing rhythm do their part; let alone any (a)rhythmic sounds around.
  I'm thinking of counting seconds for a minute and check a stopwatch if you were right;   or else meditate on controlling your heartbeat;   or else tapping fingers on table or armchair or use some drum (but with what gauge?);   or else .. ; headbanging? lol
  But I don't feel, any of these is the `right thing´, and suspect, there might be well-tried exercises to achieve keeping a constant beat.
  Only thing, I found searchengining was this: with a few audio .. thing .. erhh, wait .. renditions! .. audio renditions [at about middle of page] (and a lot of music-only results).
  Does anyone do exercises of the kind or for instance use a metronome for juggling?
                                    [ #beat #tact #tactspeed #endurance #keepingRhythm ]

Orinoco -

Familiar face just popped up on the Kuma Films channel:

7b_wizard - - Parent

I saw juggling and skills and flow.   And he didn't even bother to wrap his sweater up to bare his arms for the contact parts.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Really liked the shot around 1:34, and cool to see what Komei is up to these days.

Daniel Simu -

Juggle Jabber with Triolar: Liza, Anna and Ronja

You might not know these 3 girls yet, but you will soon! They have a lot of cool original passing stuff going on, and Liza is an amazing solo juggler too!

I had a lot of fun recording this interview, and I thought you might have fun watching too :)

Mike Moore - - Parent

Were they the ones who put out a beautifully filmed video about half a year ago? Lots of juggling in fields, I think, and directed attention well?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

If you mean this, then yes

I put the video in the eJuggle article, but since most people go straight to youtube I should find a way to include some video material of the jugglers in the interview video...

Mike Moore - - Parent

Thanks! I'd googled a bit but couldn't find it.

I wonder how many people would click on an ezine article rather than a Youtube video here. On most internet forums I imagine that far fewer would, but that margin may be smaller on jugglingedge. Personally, I didn't expect there to be any value-added on the ezine article (like with Dan Holzman's Drop Everythings) so it didn't strike me to look there.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Sadly I have no insight in the ejuggle statistics. I also don't know how many people listen to the podcast version, or how many people are not listening now that we're temporarily not on iTunes... Btw it turns out it is so much easier (thanks to youtube) to publish a video series than to publish a podcast!

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