j.acobramis - #
What makes a juggling video good? I've pondered this thought for a good while now and am still challenged as to what a definitive answer may be, perhaps that's because there isn't one. Or perhaps it's because I haven't thought about it hard enough! Haha.
But seriously, I imagine it's a delicate balance between Skills, Cinematography, and some other things. Can anyone here help me out or share there thoughts on the topic? I'm new to the juggling-video-making world, but hope to someday produce great things! Also, Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I like to imagine there's a single formula which determines how 'good' a juggling video is, but I'm beginning to realise that might not be the case.
There are a couple of archived articles here: https://web.archive.org/web/20111022055612/https://www.jugglingdb.com/compendium/media/
Little Paul - - Parent #
I've been around forever, and I've really gotten over wanting to watch people documenting their practice sessions with a single, static camera and just jump cutting the highlights together and setting it to whatever awful music their teenage brain has decided is awesome to this week.
I enjoy watching videos where as much thought/effort has gone into the cinematography as has gone into the juggling. Where the person making the juggling video is treating it like a performance, where they've thought about what angles/locations/costume/techniques best display the juggling.
This may sound like madness, but I don't believe you always have to show all of the pattern and all of the juggler. There aren't enough closeups in juggling videos, there isn't enough camera movement, too few juggling videos have character, style and location choice at their heart.
I also like shortish juggling videos. If you have to pick two pieces of music for your video, you've made a video which is twice as long as it should be. Just because you shot it, doesn't mean I should have to watch all of it. Can't bear to ditch any of the footage? Make 2 videos.
People often cite skate videos as something juggling videos could-be-but-aren't, and there's a lot in that! By the very nature of skating, skate videos are all about location, they're all about movement, they're as much about having fun (and failing) as they are the tricks.
You could do a lot worse than to look to Norbi's videos for inspiration. Ok, so he's working with performers more than he's working with hobby jugglers, but I think this video typifies everything I think about angles/locations/costume/technique.
https://youtu.be/pCkOL3Dha6s
You could do a lot worse than to look to Norbi's videos for inspiration.
Aw shucks. But seriously, I am always flattered when I get mentioned for these reasons. My goal in starting to care about videos was hopefully to help shape a new wave of well-made juggling videos. I won't go as far as to say I did it single-handedly, but I think among a couple other people I have helped inspire a new love in giving a shit.Can't bear to ditch any of the footage? Make 2 videos.
This a million times. Especially with the current state of the internet. 100 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute (direct from the YouTube official statistics page), which means it's more important than ever to be interesting, short, and then gtfo and let the next video be watched. It's the same kind of things which need to cross your mind when thinking about promotion (for example, as a circus artist)... The watcher (agent) has a ton of videos to watch, so grab their attention immediately, stay engaging throughout, and finish while they're still excited and haven't considered skipping to the next video yet.People often cite skate videos as something juggling videos could-be-but-aren't.
Skate videos are the single inspiration for me buying a nice camera and getting involved. Especially those of Brett Novak. You can probably see some of his style in a couple of my clips, because he was and still is my biggest inspiration. His videos are simple, relaxed, not at all overly or fancily edited, but just a joy to watch. Worth watching for anyone who doesn't know him (whether you're a skate fan or not), and rewatching for those who've forgotten about him!
Cheers,
Norbs
Mike Moore - - Parent #
I haven't been on the juggling scene as long as LP (only about a decade), but I definitely haven't stopped enjoying static camera jump cuts between great juggling. My favourite videos are those that show me interesting juggling, exploring moves/ideas that haven't been before. Stuff like Murakami's patterns series is the epitome of this:
https://youtu.be/qMgu2Tk6JFg
Adding in some flair/production value, but maintaining high-level, interesting juggling is also great. Example:
https://youtu.be/ApUYDBuo6A0
(Christof Buch's ~2010-2011 videos are also a good example of this kind of thing)
Norbi's videos are golden, and I think more easily appreciated by a wide group. They're the whole package: cool tricks, videography, punchy editing. I tend not to be as excited about them because I know I'm unlikely to learn new juggling from them.
The ones that I don't like are ones that talk a lot, and have 30 seconds of juggling in 3 minutes. I find videos with sparse juggling, interspersed among shots of nature, the person rolling on the ground, whatever, hard to get through.
One last thought: I find performance videos hit or miss. I didn't really care for the videos of Emil Dahl's or Tony Pezzo's magnet and LED performances (respectively), but I'm guessing I'd love them live. Conversely, I loved Kellin's 2013 performance video, and the video of Alexander Kulakov's (2006?) EJC performances.
I think that while trying to define what you liked, you explained perfectly what makes a good juggling video.
.....
What you enjoy watching.
Little Paul - - Parent #
Yeah, I guess "make the kind of video you would be excited about watching" is still cracking good advice.
Little Paul gives good advice for making good videos that are juggling themed (gVTJT) and mistakes them for good advice for making good juggling videos (gJV).
Now obviously in a (gJV) all what really matters is the juggling, so a video is a (gJV) if and only if the juggling is good and is clearly visible.
(1) Now closeups, camera movement, video effects, etc. all distract from the juggling (make it less clearly visible), therefore should be avoided.
Now when is your juggling good? This can be answered when considering juggling as an art/sport/something (eg novel juggling is good, hard juggling is good, etc).
As the category of (gVTJT) is a subcategory of beautiful videos, a video will be a (gVTJT) if it is beautiful and juggling themed.
(2) Add as much angles/locations/costumes/mediocre acting/video effects as Little Paul suggests and you'll be fine.
Norbi does make some great videos, all of them (gVTJT), but only a few of them (gJV).
It isn't impossible to make a video, that is both, but it's a hard task, as (1) and (2) sometimes exclude each other.
Also, if you go too much after (2) and your juggling isnt so good, it may seem that you are trying to compensate.
As a wholehearted juggler I don't care for (gVTJT), I only care for (gJV).
Here are some examples:
http://juggling.tv/3639 (Toby Walker)
http://juggling.tv/13750 (Peter Bone)
http://juggling.tv/11567 (Paul Lind)
If each of them would have taken as much effort into the cinematography as into the juggling, as Little Paul suggests, these videos wouldn't exist.
A (gJV) is a video that enriches the juggling community and not one, that enriches the videoing community.
I mostly agreed with you (mostly), untilA (gJV) is a video that enriches the juggling community
At which point I almost broke my computer by spitting my tea on it!
Enriching a community does not come from a single line of inspiration. By definition, to enrich is to improve the quality of (something) : to make (something) better. A community is made better by an open mind, varied inputs, the fact that every person has their own tastes and has the right to enjoy and share those.
You could argue that a pure tech-juggling video could enrich the pure tech-juggling world, but you can definitely not say that a juggling-themed video does not enrich the juggling community.
lukeburrage - - Parent #
I can see it both ways. Some people will do amazing juggling, and others will do amazing videos. But no matter how amazing a video in terms of production, if the juggling isn't new, interesting or impressive, it's not going to gain any traction. It's just not going to be a good juggling video, even if it is a good video that happens to feature juggling.
But the next step is important. Without the shitty videos with amazing juggling, those with amazing video skills probably won't be inspired to learn those same skills, or similar skills, and advance up to the same level.
You can make good juggling look shitty by being out of focus, too dark, or against some trees or a background with confusing details. But it's REALLY hard to make shitty juggling look good, just by the video being technically proficient.
New tricks and skills DO enrich the juggling community, no matter if they are in a shitty video.
noslowerdna - - Parent #
"New tricks and skills DO enrich the juggling community, no matter if they are in a shitty video."
Very true, such videos are incredibly important to the evolution/progression of juggling science. Instead of complaining about the video quality, should just say "thanks for sharing!" and study the contents as a presentation of the juggler's research (and be thankful that it's not being presented as a text description of the trick/pattern; a video is worth a million words).
lukeburrage - - Parent #
I'm sooooooooo much more happy with the state of discussion in the juggling world these days. Describing tricks with text and notation is inferior to videos in just about every way in terms of including new jugglers and sharing real tricks. Siteswap is cool for simple patterns and passing, but seeing what someone's hands and body is doing is so much better.
I completely agree with that last sentence & would've thought that siteswap literacy would decrease as a result but my personal experience says that siteswap literacy is still increasing *shrug*.
I still like text
lukeburrage - - Parent #
It's probably increasing, but the need for it is reducing. Text is good, but discussion has moved away from tricks/technique and on to culture.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
I also like text...or at least a verbal explanation. I have the hardest time seeing a pattern and understanding what's going on, but if someone tells me "it's a ___ with a ____ and a ____ on top" then I have a good shot at learning the pattern.
I once commented on Youtube, asking what a particular pattern was. It turned out I could do the pattern, I'd just never seen it from the front.
New tricks and skills DO enrich the juggling community
Indeed, sorry, I wasn't clear. I was commenting on the fact that (unless I misinterpreted it) Julius seemed to be saying "only a juggling video can enrich the community, and not a juggling-themed video".
As if my videos do nothing for juggling, and only squash court videos actually matter in the evolution of our community. Both are very important, yes, but to rule out art as a means of enriching a community is ridiculous.
You slightly mistook me here, I was saying that _good_ juggling videos are those videos that enrich the juggling community. If your juggling-themed video does enrich the juggling community then it is in my terms a (gJV).
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
I think a JTV is about the video and a GJV is about the juggling. Anyone can make a JTV, all it takes is a decent camera, editing software and a day or so. A GJV however can take years or even decades, the art is far from being ruled out, it is the juggling. The video is a kind of display, a picture frame and the juggling is the art within it. A little thought into how a GJV is presented can improve it, but I think what seems to happen more often than not is that the emphasis moves away from the juggling and onto the video itself. It becomes about the video maker instead of the juggling. The video making of a well presented GJV is of a much higher quality if it goes unnoticed IMO.
You might need to explain your acronyms as people often use jtv to refer to juggling.tv the website.
I'm a big fan of Norbi's stuff (check out the links on his profile) & things like the [Raw Art] videos. I don't think there is a specific formula. When watching a juggling video my main points of criteria that I judge are:
Good quality footage that is well framed & in focus.
Performer is well presented (ie not dressed like I dress & not plastered with sweat).
Must show me something I haven't seen before (one more ball or another wild arm weavy pattern or another spinny whiz is 'the same but better' not 'new').
Other than that anything goes.
This obviously rules out most practice videos for me. The only practice-session-filmed-in-a-squash-court that I can even remember is Alex Barron's 11 ball qualify. The reason I liked that was because of his emotional outpouring after the feat rather than the juggling itself because I loved the humanity of it.
I like videos which communicate a performance. So, there should be an actual performance, and then the videographer has to (at minimum) get out of the way and (at best) actively help present the performance.
I like videos which surprise me.
I approach this from the direction of 'what makes a juggling act good?'. To me a video that shows ultra hard tricks is just as uninteresting as one that has lots of moody videography but the tricks are unclear. A case of style without substance or substance without style. For me a good video has to combine the two. Good lighting and good backgrounds are a must. A story often improves the video. A good choice of music helps and if the video fits the music then that is better. Characterisation, presentation and distinctiveness all help. Saying which it is possible to make a video that appeals and breaks most if not all of my suggestions above.In every case though time spent on the video both in the filming and the editing generally helps.
Nigel
Little Paul - - Parent #
I think regardless of the type of video you're making, time spent in the *planning* makes the most difference
This.... (by many times)
If you are making a technical juggling video, think about the background and lighting - will we be able to see your props without difficulty?
Personally, the videos I enjoy watching the most are those that capture the fun of juggling - this is probably why I enjoy watching Lewis Kennedy's juggling convention videos (and the Dutch jugglers EJC2014 video) as they capture the technical level and also the silliness of it all.
Do you mean Alan's convention videos? Lewis tends to do the intros, but Alan does all the recording/editing.
Yes that would be right... to make up for this unfortunate error on my part here's a link to Alan's youtube channel (he even has a lovely playlist of convention videos)
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
As others have already mentioned. I like to see what people have been doing with their juggling. And I'm interested to see how the artform (as a whole) is changing and where it's going. So long as I can see what is going on, the video itself is far less important. I've never been a fan of over-produced juggling videos, often I find them too cringey to watch and find myself skimming through them to see if there are any good juggling bits.
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