Are you a juggler or a flow artist?

Search posts
Forum index

 

Mïark -

Are you a juggler or a flow artist? An article in the Flow Arts Institute website attempts to polarise the two activities. This does remind me of a discussion I had with someone who I guess regarded themselves as a flow artist and they were adamant that Flow had nothing to do with circus or juggling, circus was clowns and elephants, juggling was WJF, whereas Flow was an ethereal communication with our earth spirit through movement.

www.flowartsinstitute.com/juggle-vs-flow

Orinoco - - Parent

Hmm, that's a lot of opinion stated as fact.

Little Paul - - Parent

I didn't get to the end of the article, but if you did can you tell me if it became any more balanced towards the end?

mrawa - - Parent

"the EJA doesn’t have a single female country representative, or female member of the Board of Directors)."

Not true. What about Ali? She's been on it for as long as I've been aware of the EJA!

I agree with Orinoco, much of this is just opinion and you can't just apply the Kinsey scale to Jugglers! There are way too many variables.

"(Many jugglers I know believe it’s below them to teach children)." - sure.. but that's purely the sample of people in they've met. I know many people who'd fall in this "juggler" category who's whole aim is to teach children. The whole youth circus scene for a start.


The more I read this the more I see a short sighted view. It's not as simple as Juggler or Flow Artist! A variable that's completely glossed over is the notion of hobbyists vs professionals:

Hobbyist Juggler
Professional Juggler
Hobbyist Flow Artist
Professional Flow Artist

The whole article feels very unbalanced to me.

Mïark - - Parent

Ali is no longer President, the EJA reps have always been a bit male dominated, though at the moment it looks like they only have a festival rep who is female, so it is accurate-ish on that point.

https://www.eja.net/en/ejaboard.html

DawnDreams - - Parent

Who is the festival rep who is female? Alex? Jules? Or is it Ali?

Dee - - Parent

Joanna (Lublin) according to the list on the website.  

DawnDreams - - Parent

cheers!

DawnDreams - - Parent

I find it so interesting that people find it unbalanced.

Does no one see that I explain flow artists as childish venture-capitalists?

My attempts to explain the good and the bad of each somehow was lost on the juggling side, but I still don't see it.

mrawa - - Parent

"Does no one see that I explain flow artists as childish venture-capitalists?"
I did kinda pick up on that, but since it was at the beginning of the article I guess people might have forgot about it towards the end. I would ask if this is true, but many of the people I know who'd consider themselves Flow Artists have it as their main profession. So I guess its mostly true for my immediate flow demographic (which is mostly those at with spinning@ at or Play).

"Good and bad tends" to be subjective so people will never agree. Maybe a list of characteristics of each would help? e.g.*

Jugglers:

  • obsessed with nailing difficult tricks
  • prefer green props
  • prefer conventions/festivals with 24hr indoor facilities
  • etc


Flow Artists:

  • "Childish Venture-capitialists"
  • happy conventions/festivals without any 24hr indoor facilities
  • etc



*Just an example, not what I actually think.

DawnDreams - - Parent

yes. I didn't expect everyone to agree, that's fine.

Lists without qualifying my beliefs would be more grossly misunderstood than it already was.

:) But cheers! Interesting to see all the feedback.
And conversations on message boards are so refreshing. I forgot about ACTUAL discussion, rather than just facebook replies.

;)

Mini - - Parent

Jugglers, people know what this means
flow artists. WTF.


an example. an agent phones. hi. can i book a juggler. they know what they are getting, generally they will expect a multi skilled entertainer.

no agent ever asked for a "flow artist"


mrawa - - Parent

My assumption is that a Flow Artist is also a juggler/spinner, but a juggler/spinner is not nessassrily a Flow Artist.

Sounds like it's a subculture withing juggling, or a splint movement. Regardless there are common grounds and people will label themselves depending on their personal philosophy.

Since I'm in Vancouver for a while I might as well ask any resident Flow Artists their take on it. Apparently there's a Flow Fest tomorrow, so that'll be a good starting point.

Dawn's article is from a Flow Artist perspective, why not do the same from a juggler's point of view! (Maybe I could conduct some interviews as Madskillz

DawnDreams - - Parent

I am so going to make the I AM A JUGGLER video screaming I am a juggler while doing my 5 ball, juggling on a uni, passing, playing combat, and PROVING MY JUGGLER STATUS.

Just because I posted it on flow arts institute doesn't mean I don't get to identify as a juggler.

Mini - - Parent

i am struggling to work out why you feel the need to identify as either, i juggle, you juggle, i play with skill based toys, i assume you do the same, i have even been known to dance (well leap about in a sweaty room)

it seems the greatest division from the posts is this

flow artists want to be known as flow artists

jugglers, dont really give a damn, as long as there is tea and biscuits lol.


in short. enjoy life. and dont get too stressed over which tribal alliance you feel you should have

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'd like to be known as a juggler, thanks.

(Though I do appreciate tea, less so on the biscuits)

It's Him - - Parent

I'm more with the biscuits and forget about the tea. Not sure whether I wish to be called a juggler, more an entertainer and instructor.
Nigel

mrawa - - Parent

what kind of biscuits?

It's Him - - Parent

Too many options. At the juggling club custard creams are the preferred option. Elsewhere jammy dodgers or party rings work well for me.
Nigel

Little Paul - - Parent

I've been disappointed with jammy dodgers recently, the biscuit tastes undercooked to me and the jam filling is too hard and chewey.

I'm sure they used to be softer :(

It's Him - - Parent

The Ikea version with an apple jam filling is quite edible. I do think that many biscuits have depreciated in quality over the years but that might just be my taste buds.
Nigel

Little Paul - - Parent

The only logical response is to bake more!

Talking of baking, your mums orange and cranberry cake was amazing the other weekend (post office vehicles day).

Coming up with an approximation of it in time for Bungay is on my todo list.

mrawa - - Parent

Apologies! I'm aware that you are also a juggler, but what I actually meant was to conduct it from the point of view of someone without much/any experience of flow. Lacking a better term, a "Pure Juggler"?

I spoke to a few people at Saturday Circus and it seems that even those who consider themselves Flow Artists do not seem to agree on what makes flow flow. It was noted that when discussing the difference that it would make sense to remove Professional Jugglers from the equation (especially in terms of festivals/conventions). This is mostly do to the fact that there are relatively[1] few professional jugglers that go to juggling or flow conventions[2]. I wonder what the split is like for Flow Fests?

One description that kinda made sense was that Flow Artists design not only their acts, but also their practice sessions around music and making fluid, or more akin to dance. That they wouldn't practice without music, which is completely different to jugglers[4] who tend to be happy juggling with or without music[5].

It was also discussed that the background of individuals seems to make a noticeable difference. Jugglers[6] tend to have a technical background usually Engineering, Physics, and Computer Science. For other disciplines such as spinning I've never noticed a common background. On the other hand, an individual would also be heavily influenced by their community, so if an engineer juggler was part of a predominantly flow community then it would only be natural that they pick up characteristics of flow.

It was mentioned that a survey was taken at Madskillz last year, and I'm hoping to get a copy of it.

Guess it'll be impossible to define this empirically when there is no clear definition with the communities themselves and any data used to draw a conclusion will be both biased from those giving (where they all have different opinions) and also those analysing.

"Just because I posted it on flow arts institute doesn't mean I don't get to identify as a juggler."
Personally[7] I think that everything in both the juggling, circus, spinning, flow communities is considered a juggler, but then could also be classed as specialist defined firstly by the props (juggler[8], spinner, whatever) and also the style that they prefer (technical, fluid, etc). I guess you could extend that to the philosophy they use as well (flow, none, or other). In addition, considering that so everyone is constrained to a single prop, I could image that someone who dabbles both in say club jugging and poi might have difference styles/philosophies when practising each, being a technical juggler by a flow spinner. The number of different ways I can imagine classifying jugglers are numerous[9].


[1] Yes I'm aware that some professional jugglers/artists to frequent festivals/conventions, however the ratio of professional:hobbyist is vastly in the hobbyist favour.
[2] From my personal experience of the BJC[3], British, and European conventions
[3] I'm also aware that the BJC occurs usually during a professionals busy season.
[4] Yes I know some jugglers do require music, but I'm talking about drilling tricks, etc. Practising a routine is different.
[5] I personally juggler whilst listening to Audiobooks or Podcasts.
[7] Obviously from a pure juggler point of view, where I consider the definition of juggling to be "The skillful manipulation of one or more objects" and thus many things count (including parkour, skateboarding, bmx, slackrope, etc)
[7] Sample set from those I've met over 8 years in Europe and few recently in Vancouver
[8] Using juggler again as I hate the term "toss juggler"...
[9] and I'm thinking about it in terms of Object-Oriented Programming with multiple inheritance (more Java 8 than 7).

DawnDreams - - Parent

Flow Artist is a way to describe that you are doing something with props, but you are not going to be demonstrating from the Rastelli Standard (clubs, rings, balls in numbers) but instead you are more contemporary (dancey/flowy/arty).

Little Paul - - Parent

I wouldn't call myself a flow-artist but I rarely do anything with clubs/balls/rings these days, I'm far more about the "gentleman" style of material (hats, household objects etc) but I'm certainly not a "flow artist"

So what would you call me? Where do I fit on your kinsey scale of juggling? Am I off to one side in a different axis or something?

I think that's my biggest problem with this sort of categorisation, it just doesn't work, it's either too narrow or too general.

Personally, I'm with mini. I don't actually care what you call me as long as there's tea and biscuits (ideally also cake and G&T)

Dee - - Parent

I don't actually care what you call me as long as there's tea and biscuits (ideally also cake and G&T)....

jugglingedge really needs an upvote / "I approve" button for statements like these!

Orinoco - - Parent

7b_wizard - - Parent

Is it a trap? ;o])

Dee - - Parent

Bingo!

deleted - - Parent

post deleted

Mike Moore - - Parent

I found some of that very interesting. For example, I met Marvin Ong at an IJA and we are friends on FB - I see that part of his job is running/organizing flow workshops. I didn't understand how that could make one money, and now I think I understand that better.

By and large, I think that jugglers do value performers over workshop leaders, at least monetarily. It's rare for a workshop leader to have their show ticket/fest fee coverred, but common for performers. And, in my experience, very few jugglers bill themselves as excellent workshop leaders, ahead of performers. Of course, exception(s) exist, like Matt Hall, but I feel that the trend is there.

A few bits I found particularly interesting, and/or contrary to my experience:

"Jugglers tend to be socialist in nature, they don’t pay their coordinators and don’t believe coordinators should be paid for their work."
I disagree with that. I'm more capitalist than socialist (think Canada), and I would be fine with coordinators getting paid some amount for the work they do.

"Master classes assume at least intermediate skill"
(depends what the class is teaching, but okay)
"and rarely teach recreationally. (Many jugglers I know believe it’s below them to teach children)."
I have a hard time believing this. What does "many" mean here? I interperet "below them" to mean that they see it as an insult (hard for me to believe), rather than something that often gets outprioritized (which I can believe).

I'm unclear on what is meant by "technique" in this article. To me, juggling technique is something like "hold your hands like this, tilt yor head like this". But then:
"Learning technique is the main goal and success is about having a technically proficient show with boundary pushing skills that no one has seen before."
For general public performers, I don't think that's the main goal, as I see character development/patter as more of their main goal. For hobbyists, I don't think that's the main goal, as they tend to be less focussed on performance.

"[Jugglers] are focused on the outside appearance of their technique and how it looks to others at all times."
Not true. I don't care how most of my stuff looks. I want to come up with new things, whether they look good or not.

"They bond by showing new conceptual ideas, aka impressing each other."
This was the only sentence that jumped out at me as crazy. I certainly do not equate those two, and I'm sure a math teacher who shows her/his students new concepts daily will assure you that many are not impressed by this.

I liked how this article used the term "self-conscious" in a literal sense, it was a breath of fresh air from the negative connotation that it normally carries.

"The juggling community considers itself sophisticated and wishes other people would join them in their knowledge, trying to elevate everyone to that level of sophistication."
Sophisticated indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZOmLmOcP7Xs

There are sophisticated jugglers, and not. I don't think that's a good group for jugglers.

I do agree about wanting to see new things, and not the same old 50 tricks/patterns. I'm surprised that the flow group (or any group) can be happy seeing performances that are very samey, that haven't look into what's been done in the past. That's one generalization that fits me very well!

DawnDreams - - Parent

Canada doesn't pay it's coordinators. Not at the 3 biggest festivals, anyway.

The amount of jugglers who complain about being a daycare rather than a professional jugglers is huge. It's FAIR even. Learning huge amounts of skills for a decade to be underpaid and to run around with kids who can't juggle and play catch is slightly demeaning - unless you decide teaching recreational is what you want to do - which Flow Artists seem more okay with.
Perhaps not written well, I'll take that, but it sucks when you show up to a gig and you have to follow the daycare signs - and I'm not the only one to complain about it.

Nice sacking video.
Sophistication compared to the childish flow people - yes. People in the juggling world know their history. They know what's done before them. They aren't some neophyte who has no idea what site swap is, they have ideas about technique in their desired places.

Nice to actually get an analysis of the piece and not just "I don't like it"
Thanks.
Dawn

Mike Moore - - Parent

"Canada doesn't pay it's coordinators. Not at the 3 biggest festivals, anyway."

And not in any Canadian fests that I've heard of, either! What I'm saying is that I'm not opposed to paying them. In my experience, you are correct that they are not paid, but the opinion of "[jugglers] don’t believe coordinators should be paid for their work" felt like it was being pressed upon me. I don't think that's a sentiment widely shared.

Re: becoming a daycare, I think I understand your point better now. It made me more aware of my bias: I tend to mostly meet professional jugglers who are performing at juggling fests, and those are often the ones who've "made it [past the daycare stage]". In your example, I think that if the juggler has been hired to do (ony) a performance, and winds up spending (unpaid) time teaching children how to juggle, it's not unreasonable to be annoyed. If they're annoyed doing exactly what was described by their employer to do, I think that's unreasonable on the performer's end. (Personally, I teach juggling to children for free quite often, and sometimes organize events to do so - but true, I'm only one person).

"Nice sacking video."
Thanks...it's an unlisted video, and it's still had more hits than some of my public videos. A little embarassing.

Re: sophistication, I think that if one were to take the median (not mean - gotta keep people like Erik and David from skewing the trend too much!) knowledge of juggling history known by jugglers, and the average knowledge of flow history known by flow people, you're right. But saying that a community considers itself sophisticated, IMO, not expressing that opinion precisely enough. I think the very general binning of people/communities, without qualifiers or references to exceptions is what people are a bit up in arms about.

There are still lots of workshops I run at the IJA/other big fests that I can't speak siteswap in, because only half of the attendees are siteswap-literate. Your categorization of me in that regard is correct though, I really do wish people would learn siteswap (which is why I made an interactive video to teach it. No excuses, people!).

DawnDreams - - Parent

" I think the very general binning of people/communities, without qualifiers or references to exceptions is what people are a bit up in arms about."

Fair critique on perhaps a muddled use of language. If I had to guess what people would be up in arms about: being called sophisticated wouldn't have been my guess, but ok.

"Jugglers don't believe they should be paid for their work"
Is based on my experience running 2 festivals, and understanding the BJC model. Plus, being on the JugglingDB, contactjuggling.org and many many other discussions about "we should all be doing community work for free" discussion.

The flow artists will have none of those discussions. People get paid. Considering not-paying is crazy talk.

It is likely my strongest - easiest to prove point. Flow Festivals are expensive, in part because everyone gets paid. If you contribute, you get back that money in pay. It works as a system, but it's more a capitalist model.
Juggling festivals cost very little in comparison, because everyone is expected to participate/contribute and enjoys things more in a job well done, we're good friends kind of way.

I mean, hooping.org has ads - juggling edge doesn't. Why is that? Because they have different ideas about how money works.

emilyw - - Parent

I have a question about the people-get-paid model of festivals, since I've never been to one (unless you count IT conferences!).

I am interested in the demographic of the people who come as paid customers. Do you know how it differs from the demographic of paying customers at (say) a BJC? I'm assuming that the different pricing model would make for a substantially different demographic... but maybe I'm wrong! For example, do you get families/students/performers showing up as paying customers? Those are groups who often express difficulties with how high prices are at BJC.

Little Paul - - Parent

I'm going to take a wild stab at the demographic question, based on the narrow cross section of "flow artists" I've encountered (although that sample isn't statistically significant, and is highly biased by the environments I've encountered them in but...)

The demographic is white, middle class with disposable income, mostly late teens to mid 30s. I would say a 60:40 split male/female.

So not a million miles away from the average demographic of something like BJC really, just with a few more weave in neon dredlocks.

While I think of it, I'll just mention that one of my biggest gripes with the flow community (and possibly the article that started the thread) is a single word?

"artist"

it's such a loaded word, and to me it reeks of self importance and a willingness to look down on "mere jugglers" as they "don't understand flow, juggling is obviously devoid of art" - OK so that's as much my bias as theirs, but for me a word like that can really get in the way of what's important - getting together with other people to play with toys in ways the general public wouldn't expect anyone to put that much effort into learning.

emilyw - - Parent

What I'm trying to get at, is how the demographic differs from the juggling community demographic. You'd imagine that hiking festival prices so much would change the demographic, but does it?

Accessibility for families and students, but particularly for professional performers, has been a major driver behind keeping juggling festival pricing down, as I understand it.

Mike Moore - - Parent

"The flow artists will have none of those discussions. People get paid. Considering not-paying is crazy talk."

That's really interesting, and helps me understand the context of the article better. While I maintain that I am not against paid coordinators, you've made it clear that I am not as for paid coordinators as most people in the flow community!

I find it somewhat embarassing how clearly ignorant I am about the flow community. I'll try to take steps to learn more at my next fest.

Orinoco - - Parent

Interesting question. The Edge doesn't have ads because I don't like them. This is not really because of any anti-capitalist ideals, more because of my snobby desire for minimalism. I don't want *anything* to get in the way of the content. I want to read what you have to write, anything that gets in the way of that (by taking up space on the screen, adding attention grabbing colour schemes/animation or merely adding a few more milliseconds to the page load time) is a problem. Also a lot of big ad schemes come with user tracking (ever since visiting the new IJA site YouTube sticks a Your Membership ad in front of every other video I watch), I hate the thought of making money by selling my friend's privacy.

That said I do consider myself to be more socialist (communist, anti-consumerist) than capitalist so my design decision will have been influenced by my ideals. Interestingly I had these ideals before I learnt to juggle.

People have been subdividing the juggling community for years. I don't think there was anything in your article that I haven't heard from someone before (I don't mean that to be disparaging, I'm just saying I've been around a while), so I'm not sure why your article has triggered more response than others. I think a lot of the negative reactions have been caused by the language used. I have no doubt that everything you wrote was done in complete innocence & you had no intention of treading on anyone's toes but a little more effort to stress that it is just an opinion would have made it a lot easier to read. Acknowledging a North American bias would have helped too.

I think the nature of the backlash is in part down to self-centredness, you may well have described Flow artists as, "childish venture-capitalists" but as evidenced by the reaction from the people on the juggling dominated Facebook groups will not be able to get past the thought of, "hey, I've just been pigeon-holed!" to consider whether anyone else has been pigeon-holed too. Has anyone on the Flow forums complained about being mis-categorised? Here in the UK the BBC is often accused of bias, usually by both sides of an argument which is a very good sign that you are doing something right!

Well done for writing the article, I enjoy a good shake up!

DawnDreams - - Parent

Yup - not disparaged. Writing what I have heard since the beginning (2002). Not everyone has heard this stuff though, so it's good to be a point of reference for people to talk about something. "I agree or I disagree" goes a long way in furthering the conversation. :)

There are flow fests in the UK and Europe - the juggler just have NO IDEA they are happening.
For example: https://livelovehoop.com/bff/

I understand that it seems like Flow Arts is entirely in North America (West Coast Mostly), but it's leaking out into Europe and beyond.

The Flow Community hasn't complained as much as they say "I don't know how I feel about that"...
Which is fair.
Also, there are a few phrases I think could have been worded better on my part. I stand by my sentiments, but the wording of them could have been better.
I thought the first sentence of "I have drawn some inferences of the differences between the two worlds" and the passive use of the word tend towards i.e. "Jugglers tend, to be socialist in nature" covered me, but hey - i've learned otherwise.
Phrasing everything with "IMHO" may not conduct such enormous discussions though.

Although I do worry that I am just an asshole with an opinion.
It's possible, but I love my juggling and my flow communities. and somehow, asshole or not, they still seem to love me. ;)

Orinoco - - Parent

Best add that festival to the database then! https://jugglingedge.com/event.php?EventID=4035

Mïark - - Parent

The Brighton Flow Festival, from its website, looks like a one day series of four hula hoop workshops in a sports centre. So from this one source of evidence we should conclude that Flow Artists only meet indoors, it is only about top down teaching about the props, obsessively practising and focussing on technique, and having to take instruction from hoopists shown as performers in their photographs. Compared to a similarly priced Juggling Event: EJC which for me is a great get together, making up silly ideas, having fun, being sociable and participating in juggling.

There are lots of juggling and circus teaching workshops not listed on Juggling Edge I don't think there is conspiracy against flow events, there are 13 events listed on the Edge calendar with Flow in their title, all (with the exception of this Brighton event) are in north america mostly USA.

Could you name another non-juggling flow event in Europe?

Mike Moore - - Parent

The first half of the first paragraph came across, in my view, as unnecessarily sarcastic and attacky, and I didn't appreciate it.

I know very little about the flow community (and knew less, prior to this thread!), but some googling can answer your question:

https://swhoop.hoopingmad.co.uk/
(I was surprised here...under accomodation, it says that local hoopers will be happy to provide accomodation to out-of-towners for £20. Dawn's point about flow people not charging for things being ridiculous is being corroborated everywhere I look) (looks like no camping)

https://www.facebook.com/events/879722182078086
(Outdoor camping, looks like outdoor venue)

https://italianhoopconnection.wordpress.com/italian-hoop-connection-2014/
(Looks like it's held outdoors, no camping)

https://www.heartandhoopdance.com/location-hoop-dance-workshop-meditation-heartdance/
(Held partly indoors, partly outdoors, no camping)

https://www.germanhoopconvention.com/Welcome.html
(Looks like indoor venue, no camping)

https://www.ukhoopgathering.com/#/new-spanish-hoop-holiday-2015/4555398385
(Looks like outdoor venue)

https://www.facebook.com/events/364619143702879/
(Indoor and outdoor venue, not sure about accomodations)

Mïark - - Parent

Sorry it read as sarcastic or attacking, that was not my intention, I was trying to show that many of the traits attributed to jugglers in the original article could also be used for flow artists, (and vice versa) perhaps there the difference between people is not just whether they think of themselves as a flow artist or a juggler.

The author's experiences do not match my own in the juggling community, as a unicyclist who has dabbled with devilstick, contact juggling, levi-stick, hat manipulation - I don't think I have ever been told I am not a real juggler. I have also happily taught children and creating a technically proficient show has never been one of my ambitions (though I have inadvertently been in some technically far from proficient shows). I have not practised obsessively, have little care about how things might look to an outsider and do not use a mirror to practise. I enjoy the activity of juggling, not worrying how good I might be at it one day. I go to festivals primarily to meet people, drink tea and juggle. I don't consider myself sophisticated, I don't enjoy shows as I am a doing person not a watching person.

There are probably a few individuals who meet the stereotype created in the article, but probable more who don't. There are also differences from one country to another and differences between professionals and hobbyists attitude.

Flow looks like it is being used as a synonym for hooping, is this an attempt to distinguish it from Hoop Exercise, which looks like it might be the successor to Zumba as the new alternative form of exercise.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I especially agree that what consistutes juggling varies regionally, with variance even between clubs. Personally, I consider all of the activities you listed to be included in juggling except unicycling. Which is not to say I think unicycling is more or less worthwhile, or that I think it should/shouldn't be present at a juggling festival, just that it's sufficiently different to make categorizing it as juggling confusing/non-useful.

Another distinction: I wouldn't say someone unicylcing is "not a juggler", I would say that someone unicycling is "not juggling". I don't know whether this is a controversial view or not!

Mini - - Parent

WOW

i could not afford to be a hooper.


Swoop. £325 for 3 days, and the sit of accommodation references hotels in the £300 range..


splutter. i am a bum.

Little Paul - - Parent

If you had a hoop act though, I'd pay to see it :)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Yeah, I once considered going to a German hooping convention, but they charge a lot and are fully booked 3 months before the event starts.... I'll wait until they beg me to perform :p

Little Paul - - Parent

I've lost track of where in the thread I'm posting, I hope this is in at least a vaguely relevant place.

On the "paid coordinator" side of things, there are many examples of BJC's (and even one notable EJC in Edinburgh) where the organisers have done very nicely out of it financially. Not every BJC ploughs any profit made into the juggling community, as the event is usually run by a limited company with directors, when the company is wound up those directors can opt to take a payment out of the company (subject to tax etc)

Of course, the IJA had (has?) a salaried festival coordinator for many many years.

Just because we like a 24 hour hall, doesn't mean we're immune to capitalism.

emilyw - - Parent

What I have noticed is a subset of jugglers who really do believe that making money, or more money than you "need", is inherently morally negative. I know someone who does circus workshops at a (very low) hourly rate, and won't charge for his admin or travel time because he thinks it would be wrong.

It reminds me a little bit of the argument that it's wrong to pay someone else to look after your kids (or your elderly parents) when you could do it yourself. There's a kind of pervasive belief that some kinds of work should be free. Sex work is another example! Or any kind of community work. This belief came in very useful for David Cameron when he suggested that the "Big Society" should take care of all kinds of things - which is another way of saying that people should be doing more kinds of work for free.

Then we end up in a discussion about who exactly should pay for work that is benefitting people who can't afford to pay for it themselves... and we end up talking about government funding for the arts, which comes with its own set of moral quandaries.

7b_wizard - - Parent

reminds of Tai Chi, Kung Fu Shaolin Bruce Lee -wisdom "flow like water", .. maybe spinning S-staffs at sundown, or else "being one with Ur props / with Ur pattern" .. would any of that count as "flow"?

mrawa - - Parent

Just been reading the about section on the flow arts site (https://flowartsinstitute.com/about-us/what-is-flow-arts/) and the linked wikipedia article.

I'm now pretty much of the impression that there is absolutely no difference between "Flow Arts" and what we in the UK consider the juggling/circus community[1].

The difference (may) lie in this "state of mind" that is mentioned but never explained fully[2]. This state of mind is nothing new, and certainly never originated with Flow Arts, juggling or circus. It's common in almost any activity you can think of. For me I've experienced it drawing, juggling, swimming, video gaming, and (weirdly) programming.

Lastly:
"crew learned through hours of discussions and meetings and some trials and tribulations that the ideologies between Juggling communities and Prop Spinning Communities are not the same. The difference of props is not what makes jugglers and Flow Artists different. The differences lies in philosophies."

I'd disagree... in my experience the difference between Spinning and Juggling communities is that jugglers really want an indoor juggling hall/big top with a high ceiling, whilst spinners are happy to setup in a field and spin.


[1] As far as the activities themselves are concerned.
[2] Unless you read the whole of the wikipedia article.

emilyw - - Parent

I'm thinking that the scene in general has the curious property of attracting people across the spectrum between extremely hippy woo people and people with an extremely scientific/analytical background. It's somewhat easier to find a hippy woo person in the "flow" camp and somewhat easier to find an engineer on holiday in the juggling camp.

There lie the roots of an overgeneralisation, and an attempt to shoehorn a variety of interesting observations into an overarching framework with a shaky foundation.

Little Paul - - Parent

Im replying here because of Emily's connections to the old Sokol panel... But...

Is anyone else reading this thinking that s lot of the claims made by flow people (meditative, sharing, teaching, mystical state of mind) and a lot of the external stereotyped images of flow people (soap dodging pot smoking hippies) remind them a *lot* of the early 1990s UK juggling scene?

All that "juggling is good for your brain" and "3 ball meditation" guff we were all spouting back then?

I say give it 25 years and the flow scene will look like the juggling scene does now

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

An excellent comparison to draw LP. Personally, I don't believe that early 90s juggling/contemporary flow are entirely symptomatic of the same phase of development of a popular skill, but I definitely do think there are plenty of similarities.

My experience of the 90s juggling scene included large dollops of harmless hippy bollocks, plenty of soft drugs and rave choons for those that cared for such things (and a polite understanding of those who didn't), but those were different times and were informed by the conditions a the time - the end of Thatcherism, lots of travellers and other alternative lifestyles, the sheer novelty of the nascent new circus scene, and so on and so forth. The flow community does not possess these precise conditions, and nor will any other community. The juggling scene of the 90s was very much of its time and will forever be unique in that respect.

God help the flow scene if, in twenty five years time, they have a plethora of Flow Swap simulators, and legions of teenagers flashing twelve poi.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Programming is my easiest way into this state, it's interesting to hear that you've shared that experience. It's also the subject that I get the most emotional doing (#2 is teaching, then probably juggling, but there's a big drop off after #2).

mrawa - - Parent

I had a feeling other people would get it programming!

For me I get this awareness of what's going on in the code, project, stack, environment etc. I'm able to happily go can change things, I can debug easier, and indistinctly remember where some code is without having to grep the project. If something causes me to drop out of the state then I get utterly confused and more often than not need to close all the terminals in order to start again...

Mike Moore - - Parent

Yes! For me it feels like I'm running the parts of code in my head, and following along the pieces of data as their jostled around by this and that. And, like you, when I get snapped out of it, it takes a while to get back in.

I once missed my own birthday celebration because I completely lost track of time while coding!

Orinoco - - Parent

My programming is figuratively (& in the case of the Edge sometimes literally) more akin to trying to hit a squirrel with a 16lb sledge hammer.

mrawa - - Parent

Haha, I know what you mean. That's pretty much my relationship with Java (stupid pointless context files!). Even when I'm in flow(?) I can't guarantee my coding is elegant, but it gets the job done.

DawnDreams - - Parent

I clarified my definitions before I wrote the article to try to avoid confusion.
https://flowartsinstitute.com/definitions-of-flow/

mrawa - - Parent

You might want to update this section regarding the second term:
"Musical flow, data flow, and the flow of electricity all fall under the category of expressions in the english language that use the term to express something that moves like a stream of water."

I'm not qualified to comment on Musical flow (other than the use of complementary consecutive melody[1], but with regards to the others:
Flow of electricity is indeed similar to water. Both travel the path of least resistance. Data on the other hand is completely different. Instead of following an overarching rule (resistance or gravity) it is determined by whatever the programmer wants it to do (usually the flow of messages between components/systems).



"a relatively new noun called the Flow Arts. We capitalize this name to differentiate it from the adjective descriptions above. It refers specifically to circus disciplines such as poi spinning, hula hooping, staff, fans, and many other prop related and movement arts. Many people will also use the term prop manipulation or spinning to describe the Flow Arts (stay tuned for a future article about why there is a difference between the terms)."
Couple of questions on this:
1 - You reference an article discussing how Flow Arts is different to spinning or prop manipulation. Has this been written yet, as I would love to read it.
2 - I'm still unclear of the definition of Flow Arts, and how it is different to juggling (is it perhaps the pursuit of fluid prop manipulation, as per your dancing analogy, whilst in a flow (psychology) mind state?




[1] Although I'm sure there are some compositions that work well with sharp/contrasting sections, but I'm more referencing freestyle jamming

DawnDreams - - Parent

I have written how it became named differently, but I have yet to get to the question of why it is different to juggling. https://flowartsinstitute.com/history-of-term-flow-arts/

Flow Arts, in some ways, is defined differently to escape the Rastelli Standard of Clubs (sticks), Rings (plates) and balls. It's "new juggling" or "object manipulation" (which is a synonym for juggling).

Those who frequent the flow arts scene are more likely to come from the music festival scene, and in that way it has a new energy to it - rather than the traditional - top down learning style, it's a bottom - up, reinvention of the wheel (juggling community).

I have some theories on how juggling DB's rejection of Cj'ers, Poi spinners and other props 10-15 years ago (when I started) created some identity politics which labeled us as "different", and in that, some people went and formed a group that they did feel belonging with.
for example:
https://www.juggling.org/~conway/juggler/MAQ.html#q1

I understand it was a joke, but "you're not a juggler" is a sentiment that - as a contact juggling - I ran into constantly in the juggling community. I still identified as a juggler, considering I have been juggling since I was 7 years old, but it was a stubbornness on my part. Many people felt that rejection deeply, and I believe the result ended in the fracture of the subcultures.

I would agree they are more similar than different. I did write an article on differences, but it's only because we can't ignore they exist.
As an example: I am a human. I am also a women. My experience and ideas are different than those of a man. They differ from the experience of all other identities than can be found. They are all unique and should be acknowledged as interesting and different ways to experience the world. Acknowledging differences acknowledges all of our identities as equally valid.

Juggler and Flow Artist are identities, and this is about identity politics in a random sub-culture.


It will be interesting. It is likely The two communities will inevitably merge. The idea that it was trying to polarize is interesting. It's actually just an attempt for us all to acknowledge our different identities within the same world of moving objects in space.

Mike Moore - - Parent

"I understand it was a joke, but "you're not a juggler" is a sentiment that - as a contact juggling - I ran into constantly in the juggling community."

Oh boy, if someone in my club said something like that, I'd be giving them a good talking-to. I hope you find that sentiment is dying out!

Orinoco - - Parent

Geeky point of order: The MAQ was first posted to rec.juggling in May 1994. The IJDb was born in 2001 & provided access to a pre-existing usenet group so I don't think it was Colin's fault!

Little Paul - - Parent

I blame Barry

Daniel Simu - - Parent

This is amazing! The maturing of a sub-culture :D

Juggling now has become such a big group that you don't need to associate any more with every juggler, and groups start to actively differ from each other. It is interesting development that we now have 'spinners' and 'jugglers', who also have their own conventions and training groups etc. There is still overlap, but who knows what evolves out of this! Back in the days there was not even a juggling subculture, everything was contained in the culture of 'circus'.

Of course this kind of growing has some negative side effects, such as negative stereotypes of other groups (jugglers don't like to teach kids, spinners are dreadlocked weed smokers), but overall it means that more people can enjoy the fun of juggling/spinning/circus :)

Oh btw I didn't read the article. Should I?

Chris - - Parent

I doubt you will learn anything from it. It is an opinion piece by someone who appears to be a flow person about how different jugglers are. The majority of the "facts" are mostly wild conjecture or just plain wrong.

DawnDreams - - Parent

Been in the scene since 2002.
I can juggle 5 balls, rings, clubs, boxes.
Was juggling club president for 5 years at various colleges/universities.
hosted Komei Aoki & Tony Duncan at my house,
Spent week at the Katakomben,
Traveled the world finding jugglers.
Hired as a juggler for a decade.
gone to hundreds of juggling festivals
organized 8 juggling festivals myself.

Yet, somehow, I am a flow-person. lol.

7b_wizard - - Parent

attempt to define "flow arts":
As subculture in the juggling community, it is the manipulation ('bodypulation'?) of props ( staffs, (fire)poi, astrojax?, meteor?, swinging-clubs, contact-balls, .. folding fans, .. ) mainly by spinning, swinging, twirling, rolling, without losing contact to the body and without losing a hold of them (i.e. not throwing, not tossing).
The focus is on aesthetics and flowing movements of the whole body merging with the prop's physical behavior (& the outward impression in performing on stage).
In a broader sense "flow arts" can be any art or sportive occupation devoted to meditative body culture (in the spirit of asian philosophy) as found - without props, then ;o]) - e.g. in Tai Chi Chuan or other martial arts.
- end def -

"Rock solid" perfect - even meditative - juggling has nothing of this "whole-body-and-mind-flow" .. U can do it standing still - merging with the pattern like a metronome or a clock.
Creative juggling in motion ( just saw Jay Gilligan's "evolution of juggling" ;o]) - yet another 'trend' focussing on prop's history :o] )
can be "play", "experimantal juggling", or then - if aimed on really mastering - "flow" in that sense.

I think it does make sense - call it pidgeon-holing or pegging as sth there isn't or .. - finding names for what we're doing when trends & streams crystalize away from what's usually done & seen. New trends, directions, ways, orientations to locate oneself into and to decide focussing on and finding one's way & identity as a .. [well .. choose! ] :o) .

(and don't forget the closely related Rhythmic Gymnastics)

I myself know this flow-feeling very well when juggling 3d (not in that plane before U, rather like triangular planes) or freestyle when i got no idea where the racketed balls will land and have to lt my hands do the thinking all by themselves. I have it when going to my limits having to take in martial arts' squat ground position, ready to bounce off the ground, or to pivot, or to do a crossing step. All in all it's just one - how major aspect I don't yet know.

Orinoco - - Parent

I've always thought of flow artists as people who are able to improvise & make whatever prop (or even no prop) they are using seemingly do whatever they like at will. A good flow artist will be able to perform a wide variety of tricks but the boundary between each one should be undetectable. Flow artists in my mind have more in common with jazz artists. So in that respect people like Stefan Sing, Minh Tam Kaplan & even Anthony Gatto are excellent flow artists.

I first heard the idea of flow art as jazz from a poi spinner.

7b_wizard - - Parent

that makes me look up jazzdance on wikipedia .. witout any enlightning but "dancers floating across the floor" ( °hovering°, really :o) ).
Yet another notion, that of "continuity" comes to my mind reading Ur post.

deleted - - Parent

post deleted

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

It might be better if flow artist was shortened to one word I think. From now on I wish to be known as a fartist.

DawnDreams - - Parent

Flow Artist use Fartist to refer to themselves quite frequently!

I went away on tour all summer. Nice to read all the threads.

I'd like tea please, no biscuits.

Orinoco - - Parent

What do you mean by, "no biscuits"? I don't understand.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Bring on the Ginger Nuts! Lovely with an Earl Grey Tea.

Mïark - - Parent

Maybe I could write about people who like biscuits versus people who don't; "Are you a biscuit lover or not?" with facts like biscuit lovers make websites - non-biscuit lovers write articles; biscuit lovers are male - non-biscuit lovers are female, biscuit lovers have a high syllable to consonant ratio in their names - non-biscuit lovers have a low ratio.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

There may be 'non-biscuit lovers, I don't think there are any any non-biscuit likers though. If there are any then they're just fooling themselves.

 

Subscribe to this forum via RSS
1 article per branch
1 article per post

Forum stats