So it's been 12 days since Ethan has posted.

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Monte -

So it's been 12 days since Ethan has posted. I'm curious to know weather he was blocked by that many people or has he left the site as a result of being censored. Whilst not condoning his attack on Luke I would hate to think I would be blocked from posting if I said something to upset the God Emperor. I would prefer to see a more democratic approach to the running of the site whereby a vote could be taken before such a draconian measure as excluding a member is taken. I feel Ethan would have benefited from an open discussion of his behaviour rather than a somewhat petulant exclusion.

Here's hoping my post gets past the censors.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I didn't block Ethan for attacking me. I blocked him because he was flooding the forum, and I needed rest. He did this after we tried to have an open discussion about his behavior.

Monte - - Parent

After re-reading the thread in question a couple of times it seems to me that the discussion of his behaviour started after Orin temporarily barred Ethan from posting.This meant he was not afforded the opportunity to either appologise for his behaviour or try to explain it. I can fully understand anyone wishing to block his posts as they are often childish or intentionally provocative however I would have preferred to make up my own mind about reading them or not. In fact having an option to block any poster I feel is not contributing to the site makes excluding anyone unnecessary as I can make an adult decision myself and not need to rely on an arbitary decision made on my behalf.

Margaret Thatcher talked about denying the IRA the "oxygen of publicity" but it was not until John Major sat down with all parties that the good Friday accord was signed putting an end to the violence caused by excluding republicans and loyalists alike from discussing the future of Northern Ireland. "Better jaw jaw than war war" as Arabella's grand father once said.

As you can probably tell I feel the principles of free speech go much further than some immature comments made by a young lad on an unimportant juggling forum.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I'm totally with you on the free speech thing. However, in this case, Ethan's flooding of the forum was getting in the way of other people wanting to speak freely. When one person's actions end up silencing or driving other people away, how is that person not also restricting free speech?

Monte - - Parent

You have the option to block any user so you can (and did) stop him flooding your forum.If I choose to allow him to flood my uncensored view of the forum that should be my decision not the God Emperors.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Well, I disagree on this. If I had come to this forum for the first time, and seen Ethan's posts before anything else, I would simply have never read anything on the forum, nor would I have created an account, nor would I have started posting, nor would I have then decided to block him.

This happens to me very often! If my first contact with a website, forum, facebook group, or any other kind of online community is even remotely non-positive, let alone negative, I simply never return.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

This reminds me a bit of rec.juggling and viewing it through IJDB - there was a lot of spam. Someone made a really quite decent spam filter, you installed it and forgot there was any spam. Which was great for any existing users, but it did mean that any new users got a poor first viewing of rec.juggling, and might have been put off by all the spam.

Of course, periodically a newish user would suggest sorting out the spam problem, and all the old users would say they used this script, and all the users who had spent months wading through the spam since the last time that the filter was mentioned could install it.

The point being, in general (not commenting on this specific case) you want problems to be sorted by default - obviously some things have to be left to user preference, but there is a big downside to saying, yes this is a problem but users can fix it like this.

shawnlives - - Parent

This is EXACTLY why I haven't been keeping up with this forum as much as I should this past week or so. When I saw all the Ethan drama, I felt like I had wasted a bunch of time reading things that have nothing to do with juggling. Looking again today I am pleased with all the new posts.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

He seemed young and not very self aware.. a bit annoying maybe, not sure he was silencing or driving anyone away though. I don't like any kind of blocking, rec.juggling was just fine for all that time without it.. if I'm not mistaken?

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

You are not mistaken ... mostly. Many USENET feeds had pretty good spam filtering, meaning that penis enlargement potions rarely hit the radar, but other than that it was what is laughingly referred to as unmoderated, by which people mean that someone else is there to protect their delicate sensibilities and prejudices, like a magic outrage fairy bestowing pixie dust of decorousness on the unseemly.

r.j was great because it was in fact user-moderated, like most things in life: Don't like something/somebody/whatever? Ignore it and move on. It was really liberating, and the small price to pay was that you would often need to - gasp! - ignore the rest of a thread that didn't interest you. The benefit was conversation that could not be stifled, or indeed be edited post hoc.

Consequently we had lo​ads of posters just like Ethan - paging Sondre! - who flooded the board with piffle and either got bored, or learned better ways to engage with the conversation if they were so inclined. The unimaginative trolls tended to tire of the effort, or even entertained us with an amusing flounce, whereas the misguided but well-intentioned contributors modified their behaviour because they did in fact want to engage and realised that they were putting people off. The key difference is that lots of people blowing you off is way more persuasive than a single moderator doing the same, even if they have broad support.

I'll admit I was baffled and disappointed by Ethan's banning from a forum well equipped to allow its users to self-moderate, and equally by Luke's and others' inability to move on, just like they did in the r.j days. But I also admit that I have some pretty clear ideas about how people should get the best out of a forum like this, and that not everyone shares my outlook. Ethan struck me as a small kid in a big kid's playground, who couldn't quite get to grips with the prevailing culture here, and I remain mystified why he wasn't just allowed to find his niche or fade away.

For the sake of nostalgia: Chris Chiappini, Dr. Jerry/Lion Juggler, Soular Influx, Dick Franco, Anthony Gatto ffs!, Chris wossname, Jason Garfield post-Sean McKinney, and hundreds of others besides dipped their toes in the r.j water and failed to make the connection. Who on earth would wish that their efforts had never seen the light of day? Share your memories of r.j car crashes Edgizens!

Orinoco - - Parent

I think Pumpkineater was specifically asking about ignoring users. Most usenet clients had a 'bit bucket' where you could set up email addresses that you wanted to ignore. There were many messages which had a single line of *plonk* which was the sound of someone hitting the bottom of said bucket.

I used to enjoy poking the trolls back in the early days, but I never saw the people that it turned away. Now I do. It definitely feels a lot different when it is my hard work that is negatively impacted. Sorry Colin.

My favourite rec.juggling car crash by far was Zuko. Yay for HQJD's!

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

> Zuko

Good. Feckin'. Call.

Those were the days.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Who was the guy who said fire breathing with petrol was a good idea?

barnesy - - Parent

Stephen Whitis.

barnesy - - Parent

Ah no, maybe not true for the fire breathing part!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Makes "the guy with petrol a good idea"-part remain true.

lukeburrage - - Parent

>stephen.whitis@spamMeNot.edu says...
>> If you guys want to tell me where I can find paraffin in the Dallas
>> area, I'll try some.
>>
>
>Oh, please don't, Stephen. If you continue to use gasoline on your fire
>torches, there's a good chance that the world will soon be a better
>place.

Andrew, I used to have a fair amount of respect for you. The
fact that you are too stupid to realize that I've used it safely in
the past and can use it safely in the future hurts that. The fact
that you actively *want* me to kill myself, and feel it would be
an improvement, tells me more about you. Fuck off.

I'm out of here for awhile. Fuckhead thinks that he can call me
names, tell lies, etc. You're just making it worse, and it appears
intentional. It's clear that you guys are just assholes, and that
I'm not going to stop you from being assholes. It's clear that no
matter what I say, you plan to abuse me.

So fuck off. I'm out of here. I may be back, or I may not. I'm
sure you would rather have Nigel trolling and trying to start trouble
than real conversation anyway.


--
Stephen Whitis

Little Paul - - Parent

Ahh... The glory days of the epic flounce

Orinoco - - Parent

Believe it or not I am doing what I think is right to protect him. I have more information than you. I mean this to be a simple statement of fact, I don't mean to be condescending.

I understand that I'm not saying much but I wanted to say that I acknowledge that you disapprove of my decision, it's certainly not something I'm pleased with & I appreciate you mean well.

Little Paul - - Parent

I don't know anywhere near as much as Orin, but I do know the decision wasn't a knee-jerk response, it wasn't the first resort, and that it wasn't a decision that was taken lightly at all.

Im as much for free speech as anyone, but at the same time if a kid is repeatedly bashing you in the shins with their new toy fire engine, there's nothing wrong with taking it off them and sending them to sit on the naughty step for a bit until they calm down.

Ethan's posts have not been vetted, censored of redacted at all - Orin just took his fire engine away for a bit.

Also, yes. At least this many people have him on ignore.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

I thought this was a 'mischievous community of jugglers'. If it's not just childish trolling and there's something more sinister to it then let us know! Why the secretiveness? Also.. the vagueness as to how many people blocked him? I find it hard to believe that more than twelve people did. Most of us make mistakes, I know I do, Luke Burrage does and Little Paul does too (with his serial blocking). I was interested to see how the Ethan thing panned out.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Reading back at my comment - I hope that doesn't sound like I'm complaining or anything like that. The Edge is awesome and Orinoco does an amazing job on it. Perhaps it's just that this is actually none of my business. Sorry I'll just keep out of it.

Little Paul - - Parent

OMG ur so annoying! Instaban!!!!


;)

ChrisD - - Parent

I blocked Ethan, on the day he was flooding the forum with barbs at Luke, because he was being so in-your-face irritating to the whole community. Then I unblocked him because I found that I couldn't read the discussion about blocking him as he'd started it (or at any rate some other ongoing thread). Don't know if my brief block counted there or not, or whether I'll re-block once he's back. Hopefully he will reflect and become the positive humorous contributor Void said he could become.

Monte - - Parent

Chris you can not know weather a person is "irritating to the whole community" you found him to be irritating so you blocked him. Others could have found him funny so should be allowed to decide for themselves.

I understand that Orin was trying to protect him from making a fool of himself however making a twat of yourself may lead to self enlightment and be a good way of curbing future behaviour. I know I have certainly learned from my mistakes and the disapproval of others over things I have done or said in the past.

ChrisD - - Parent

Fair enough Monte, that is my personal interpretation, not something I can know for sure.

Monte - - Parent

I'm sorry Paul but if someone is not allowed to speak that is censorship.

Whilst you might find it intolerable to have your shins bashed others may be more tolerant than you. You could argue that taking a child's toy away will stiffle his independence and his individuality and lead to him being resentful and full of spite. Far better that you remove yourself from his vicinity and let other more tolerant people explain to him why bashing your shins was unacceptable behaviour and suggest a more productive way to play with his fire engine.

Feelings of exclusion and marginalisation has led to many followers of Islam becoming radicalised and left them feeling justified for their acts of atrocity. You may have turned Ethan into a suicide poster.

The Void - - Parent

Quick, someone send him a copy of The Net Delusion!

Monte - - Parent

Ok Void I do realise there have to be some limits to freedom of speech on the net or otherwise. No-one should have the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre or preach violence against vulnerable minorities or commit acts of cyber bullying but that is not what we are talking about here. Ethan just reacted in an immature and witless way to a slightly provocative comment by Luke about "finding the block feature" In my opinion banning Ethan from posting is an over reaction to a minor infringement of the rules of polite society and no more. Freedom of speech has it's downside for sure but the alternative ie censorship and oppression is worse. I just feel the situation could have been managed better and that it would be a shame if a young juggler leaves the community out of either anger or shame and now feels too bitter or too embarrassed to return.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Again, I'd rather one annoying young juggler leave if that means many other young jugglers would join or stay. He was only blocked for a few days, so he can always come back when he's decided to be less annoying.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I am with Luke here. There are plenty of communities that I have not joined because of the maturity of its users.

Little Paul - - Parent

*cough* Reddit *cough*

Monte - - Parent

If seems unlikely to me that anyone would leave the site because one poster out of hundreds makes an occasional annoying post. Also we have no information about how long he will be blocked for. And who is going to decide if he is being less annoying and therefore be allowed back. Hopefully not you as you have already admitted that you scroll past most peoples posts as they are not worth reading unless someone else has replied first. A little more tolerance of others would be a good thing in my opinion.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

There aa big and relevant difference between 1 post in 100 and 1 poster in 100.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Aaaand usual proof that my tablet's autocorrect makes my posts worse more often than better..

Monte - - Parent

Sorry Brook I'm not quite sure what point you are making. Either way most of the posts on this site will not drive users away. Are you suggesting that all of Ethan's posts are annoying enough to make people leave the site?

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yes. That is it exactly.

If I look at a new forum, and see any text by any member that was/is as bad as Ethan's or 7b_wizards, I would immediately close the browser tab and not bother checking again.

Seriously. I have done this many, many times.

Monte - - Parent

Yet you are still here despite being more annoyed than most, thus proving my point no-one leaves they just ignore.

I believe both of them have also posted serious points concerning juggling or performing which no-one could fairly consider to be annoying so it is untrue to say either posts 100% annoyingly.

Orinoco - - Parent

You are looking at it backwards Monte. You'll notice that Luke's UserID is 21, Ethan's is 904. I have personal experience that recent outbursts have directly stopped 3 people joining the Edge. & that's just from the limited number of people I met in person at a festival. People won't sign up to block one person. They will just ignore the entire site & everyone on it. I don't have the luxury of second chances. I too used to think the ignore function was the answer to everything, but I was wrong.

I've just sent Ethan a very long email which I'm sure he will read & then he'll be able to reactivate his account. I've no idea how he will take it but I'm going to give him a chance & I ask that everyone else do the same. I have asked him not to antagonise anyone, but that goes both ways. Please be mindful that Ethan is only 14 years old. You've all heard the quote about democracy being two wolves & a sheep deciding who's for dinner, I don't want to log in tomorrow morning to find a mob brandishing pitch forks.

Monte - - Parent

Are you saying it is ok for Luke to make rude posts because he has been a member for a long time but because Ethan is relatively new he will be excluded for rudely defending the wiz against such attacks from Luke. That is the type of rank cliqueism which I predict will eventually be the death of open discussion on this forum.

Orinoco - - Parent

No. We're trying to tell you that new users are put off joining forums if they see negative behaviour. Your point that Luke is still around is moot because Luke joined first.

Monte - - Parent

Yet people are still joining the forum. If it were universally true that bad behaviour puts people off joining forums then all forums would be in terminal decline and there seems to be no evidence for this. There are more forums now than ever yet most have at least one dick trolling for effect.

Orinoco - - Parent

Did you spot my note above about my conversations at Camvention? Yes a few people are still joining the forum, but others are not. Your argument is akin to saying it's ok that these patients are not receiving treatment because these patients are. I'm not happy with that.

Monte - - Parent

And how many people might decide not to join a forum which practises censorship and exclusion. Besides which I would judge a forum on the quality and variety of the debate not dick swinging about the number of members. If someone is shallow enough to not join because they find some posts to be annoying whilst not considering the vast majority of interesting debate then perhaps they would not be missed anyway.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Can you give names? ;o]p

Orinoco - - Parent

I would really love to, but I respect their privacy.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Could you not decode my smiley with twinkle, nose, upper lip, underlip with tongue, as not meant sooo serious?

Daniel Simu - - Parent

THAT was a smiley? Nope, could not decode that... I thought your cat walked on your keyboard as you pressed 'submit'

7b_wizard - - Parent

Laughing out loud :o])

Orinoco - - Parent

None that I have any evidence for.

You may judge the people we sadly won't get to see as you wish.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

Things do not have to universally bad to be bad. Things that put off x% of users may still be worth fixing, even if x is not 100%.

Monte - - Parent

Also... if I am no longer allowed to antagonise people I may exclude myself from posting.

I happen to find geeky discussions on siteswap numbers and endless posts on computer coding to be tedious in the extreme but I would never butt into the thread to say so. I just scroll past and look for something more to my liking.

Orinoco - - Parent

I have not told you you are not allowed to antagonise people. I asked everyone to give Ethan a chance which I think is a perfectly civil thing to do. Either you honestly think that is an unreasonable request, if so why? Or you are trying to provoke me, again if so why?

Monte - - Parent

I think asking people to give Ethan a chance is a perfectly reasonable thing to do . However singling him out by asking him and not Luke or myself to refrain from antagonising anyone is not.

I am trying to provoke you because I disapprove of your actions but i am glad you have finally decided to join the discussion at last.

I believe that labeling yourself as the God Emperor and exersising total power makes you a valid target for my disapproval.

Orinoco - - Parent

You first complain that you are no longer allowed to antagonise anyone, then you complain that I didn't. Your multiple positions are making me dizzy.

To reiterate:

I ask that everyone else do the same

That includes you & Luke.

Please feel free to continue your disapproval.

Monte - - Parent

My postion is solid. I ask that you treat all members the same. Either you insist on a sterile forum where no-one is allowed to antagonise or you allow all to do so. If you read your own post "I ask everyone to do the same" was in relation to giving Ethan a chance not in refraining from antagonising. Luke was not excluded for antagonising the wiz and I have so far not been excluded for antagonising you.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Maybe you overread (or forgot about) the "both-ways"-part in [Orin : ] "I have asked him not to antagonise anyone, but that goes both ways." ?

Orinoco - - Parent

As Mr Wizard pointed out the 'both ways' part was my way of appealing for tolerance, but in hindsight I should have explicitly stated rather than alluded to it.

Regarding my inconsistent treatment. I don't have a set of hard & fast rules, I just do what I feel is right. Luke, 7b_wizard, you & I have all been around long enough to look after ourselves. Given his relative inexperience I just felt it would be better to isolate Ethan from the storm for a bit.

Funny how Ethan has ended up looking more mature than all of us...

Monte - - Parent

Enough said, no hard feelings your highness, or is it your excellency, how does one address a God Emperor?

Orinoco - - Parent

Indeed, no hard feelings at all. Please continue to question my decisions. I will get some things right, I will get some things wrong. As tough as being questioned is I think everyone understands each other better now which is a good thing.

Sometimes I get addressed as 'sir', sometimes 'oi wanker', I respond to both equally.

Monte - - Parent

Ah a benevolent dictatorship. My father used to argue that was the most efficient form of government. As opposed to all that time consuming consensus gathering.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

> I will get some things right, I will get some things wrong.

I would be delighted if this came to be a touchstone for all at The Edge.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I'm not sure about all the talk about maturity here. Is that a metric we need to compete on? If blocking people is seen as an immature action, why is it built into the forum?

lukeburrage - - Parent

I have used a forum for about 8 years now with include the following rules in the top post of the forum. In total there have been three people banned ever. There is no ignore or blocking function. These rules can work:

These forums are a little different from other online communities, in that they will never be allowed to descend to the depths so common on "teh internets." The rules are simple:

1. Be mindful of your grammar and spelling.
2. Post intelligently
3. Don't be annoying.

Failure to abide by these rules will result in warnings and an eventual banning.

Unless it is relevant to your argument, don't admonish other forum members about their grammar or spelling: our moderators will handle that.

Don't post unless you have something to contribute. Otherwise empty "QFT" posts are considered annoying (see above).

Our moderators can and will correct in red your errors in order to maintain the readability of the forums. There is a spell-checker available, as well as a "Preview Post" button: use them. Repeated violations of the third rule can result in banning via court martial. To date, three people have been banned. If you post intelligently and are an intelligent person, you will have no trouble here. We trust our members to conduct themselves reasonably, and thus don't feel the need to create an extensive code of conduct. It should be obvious to everyone what is and is not appropriate.

Monte - - Parent

Jesus that sounds like a godawful way to run a forum.
1, some people struggle with spelling and grammar that does not make their opinion less valid.
2, elitist nonsense, some people are less intelligent than others but it does not mean they can't contribute meaningfully to a debate.
3, annoying is so subjective. Would I be right in assuming your court martial panel is self appointed or are you at least democratic in gathering such a jury before you decide on an expulsion?

God Emperor your wankerness I withdraw all previous objections there are clearly much worse ways of running a forum.

The Void - - Parent

Please don't refer to Luke as "Jesus". Thank you.

Monte - - Parent

I apologise fully for such heretical blasphemy.

Little Paul - - Parent

I'm fairly sure Luke exists

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

If you Luke close enough..

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yes, elitist. It fits do that forum. Only three people have ever been banned. The court martial was a thread which was open for anyone to comment and try to sway the moderators. You know, just like his very thread we are currently chatting in, in which you are happy you have swung the moderator to your view.

These exact rules aren't appropriate everywhere. My reason for posting them was for the exact reason you wanted, which is some guidelines so it isn't just one person doing what they feel is right at the time, and upsetting people who think the forum should be run in a different way.

Clear rules, whatever they are, reduces ambiguity. The "don't be annoying" rule is specifically left vague though, to catch behavior that is generally found to be unsuitable that can't be caught by nitty gritty lists. A moderator being able to point to such a rule is very good motivation to someone to stop being annoying.

Seriously, don't be so kneejerk in your reactions to this stuff. I suggested these to back you up in that a single God emperor might need some help.

Monte - - Parent

I object to your assertion about a knee jerk reaction. I went away and chopped some firewood and formulated my objections to your rules. I then came back nearly 40 minutes later and posted my thoughts.
Ok there need to be restrictions to what people can say I don't want to read racist comments or personal attacks but I just don't think vague rules about "being intelligent" are the answer. I think Cedric's opinions on self moderation are more useful.

also "yes,elitist it fits do that forum." perhaps you should follow your own advice about using the preview button to make your post more readily comprehensible.

The Void - - Parent

Your post is missing one comma, one full stop (or, for argument's sake, a hypen or colon) and one capitalisation.

What's the name of that internet law about posts which criticise the grammar of another post? I have forgotterisified.

Monte - - Parent

I hate to be a pedant as you know, but I was making a point about comprehension not grammar. But well done, the post count is creeping towards a double century. I'll be happy if it reaches double Nelson.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I wrote that on my phone. The text is small, and there's no edit function. Nobody is perfect.

Why are you still nitpicking? I didn't say those should be the strict rules for this forum. I'm saying maybe there should be some basic guidelines somewhere, to give people a general target to aim for.

And the rules aren't about "being intelligent", but mention "post intelligently". That's a big different. Someone can be very intelligent, and yet post unintelligently, or even unintelligibly. Who knows, maybe 7b_wizard is the cleverest person on the forum. Who knows? His posts certainly don't make it easy to see, if he is.

If you were to write a very simple set of guideline to this forum, what would you suggest?

Little Paul - - Parent

I would suggest a simple link to "Wheatons Law"

Then we can all be banned because we've all broken it at one time or another.

Monte - - Parent

"If you post intelligently and are an intelligent person, you will have no trouble here"

I'm sorry that after over 20 posts on the subject you still misunderstand my position. I am against censorship and exclusion. I don't want any rules concerning banning members. I don't want to write any guidelines for this forum. I believe open debate is the answer to bad behaviour.

Annoying when people are rude and condescending towards you isn't it Luke?

However I will give you the same politicians apology you gave Ethan. I'm sorry if I caused offence.

Also I would like to apologise to Void for constantly starting sentences with a preposition I know it must annoy the hell out of you.

lukeburrage - - Parent

You've got nothing to apologize for. But at least I now understand that literally nothing I can write will help you, and nothing you reply with will help me. You want no rules or guidelines at all, and I'm starting from the idea that if we were to have some rules or guidelines, it's good to discuss what those might be, or where they might begin, if a moderator wanted to easily show someone the desired behavior of forum participants.

Personally I don't want open debate about the behavior of everyone who starts abusing the forum. I don't want debate about different levels of English writing and comprehension. I don't want open debate about spelling and grammar mistakes in individual posts. It's super tiring. I want a single moderator who can say "Make a better effort to write more intelligibly/not be annoying or else face suspension" and that be the end of it.

And no, you aren't annoying, and I don't find you rude or condescending. I hope that wasn't what you were aiming for, because you failed.

Monte - - Parent

So to sum up;

I am against censorship and exclusion and for open debate.

You are for censorship and exclusion and against open debate.

We must agree to disagree and leave it up to our peers to decide which position they prefer.

Little Paul - - Parent

Or, perhaps, possibly try talking about juggling for a bit?

Monte - - Parent

We were talking about ways of talking about juggling but feel free to ignore if it bores you.

Monte - - Parent

Maybe if you believe in a block function a possible improvement would be the ability to block a thread in addition to blocking a person.

That way if you are fed up with me talking about off topic things you wouldn't have to risk missing something I have to say about BBU for example.

Of course you may have already blocked me in which case you won't be seeing this post anyway.

Mike Moore - - Parent

I would love the ability to mark a thread as read permanently.

shawnlives - - Parent

Totally with you. This thread is incredibly tiring. Every once in a while I think about sharing my opinion on the subject, then I realize (just like all but 4 or 5 of us), that it just isn't worth it.

Monte - - Parent

At a quick count I think you are the 24th different person to join this thread.

Monte - - Parent

Sorry 23 you had already posted previously so I counted you twice.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I'd like to think there is a lot more grey than this pure black and white view, but whatever makes you happy.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Finally:

1. It wasn't my own advice. It was an example set of rules.

2. The rule isn't to have perfect spelling. It states "Be mindful of your grammar and spelling." That is very different to holding everyone up to the level of perfection.

3. That wording isn't an accident. Not everyone can be perfect, and there are many people for whom English is a second or third language, or are dyslexic and such. But the rule is for people to write with the aim of using their best spelling and grammar. If this rule was in place, it would be a very, very handy thing to point 7b_wizard at. If he carried on ignoring the rule intentionally, it could help Jon ban him for a while until he at least attempts to raise his standard.

4. Your criticism of my spelling might avoid failing this guide: "Unless it is relevant to your argument, don't admonish other forum members about their grammar or spelling: our moderators will handle that." Which is fine. If you really didn't understand my "do" = "to" mistake, that's fine. I kinda find that hard to believe though. Again, the spirit of that guideline, and the wording, is no accident.

5. Despite any leniency in point 4, you telling me that the rule doesn't work because I myself made a spelling error is exactly the thing the phrase "don't admonish other forum members about their grammar or spelling" is written to negate. You failed at reading comprehension if you thought the rule said only perfect spelling was allowed, and you failed again by picking me up on a single mistake in contradiction of a following guide that is to stop people negating other people's arguments due to errors in their spelling or grammar.

mrawa - - Parent

If this rule was in place, it would be a very, very handy thing to point 7b_wizard at. If he carried on ignoring the rule intentionally, it could help Jon ban him for a while until he at least attempts to raise his standard.
And what if someone cannot help the way they write? Some people cannot help it, nor should nor should they adhere to another culture's norm. Direct translations from other languages can be odd to read especially if you didn't know that was the case. Since this is a world wide forum then we don't have the right to enforce it (except the Emperor... then he would be a Tyrant).

Regardless... What is any of this going to achieve? The forum works pretty well these days, apart from a few users posting in alternative styles (of which they are frequently being reminded of). How about we let them be, they're already improving.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Until the next person. And then the next person.

The entire point of "hey, everything's fine, and there are tools for fixing it once people have joined, logged in, discovered the tools, and then used them" is that it isn't working. As in, people are not signing up to the forum because they see the type of posts we are discussing in exactly this thread. This is the point. The point is the very thing we are discussing, over and over.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I also am a member of a (non-juggling) forum with very very similar rules. It has repeatedly been called 'elitist', but besides that it has shaped and contributed more of the culture than any other board in its genre. It after many many years it is still the only correct place to have an in-depth discussion about its topic and has never let me down.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yup. Same with the forum I took these rules from. At first I couldn't believe that a moderator would actually take the time to correct the spelling and grammar of a new person's post with red text. But you know what? They only ever had to do that to someone once, and rarely at that.

I LOVE the elitism of that forum. It's the reason why I've been chatting there for eight years and am friends with many of them, even meeting up with people on my travels, and staying at their homes sometimes too. And yeah, the amount of creative output by the members of the forum is continually inspiring.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

You don't happen to be a member of WotP, do you? :P

lukeburrage - - Parent

I don't know what that means.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

It would have been an absurd coincidence if you did ;)

Monte - - Parent

I always feel free to disapprove it's one of the advantages of democracy over totalitarianism.

However I approve of your approval of my disapproval.

7b_wizard - - Parent

A dictature is not "bad in itself" as a states-form or as a social ruling model. It depends on how it's fulfilled. One advantage of a dictature is getting a hold of great and complex diversity of social members (systemic "agents"). The more, when there's potential for conflicts.  ( One strong hand will then avoid chaos. Russia e.g. is a wide-spread country with borders to and peoples towards asia, near-east, europe and just as many diverging interests and mentalities - so it's not coincidence that one strong hands have ever been ruling there whilst small countries can 'afford' democracy).

The dictature of the majority is an example for how democracy can be unapt as ruling model (2 wolves vs. 1 sheep).

Monte - - Parent

To quote Winston yet again;

"Democracy is the worst possible form of government - apart from all the others"

7b_wizard - - Parent

The fascination of siteswap digits lies in them being actually real aiming points, both, of a pattern, and in your range of air-space controlled by you.

lukeburrage - - Parent

Ethan and 7b_wizard weren't 100% annoying. They were 100% ignorable. They were 100% stressful to decode and find any worthwhile meaning in. I ignored them for the entire time they were participating in the forum.

I did that for however long it was because I want to read and chat with jugglers I've known for 15 years or so. There's a load of really good discussion here, and I read all of it.

If I was new to the forum, and didn't know the value of the non-spamming, non-understandable posts from a tiny minority but yet still flood the forum, and didn't know there was an ignore function for the non-unannoying posts, I wouldn't have ever joined.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hey, now, .. WHAT?! Calls "any" my texts "bad" after not even reading them lol ! :o))) haha .. What a statement!? .. now °really° ..

It's Him - - Parent

If you were to write using English and appropriate sentence structures/syntax I wouldn't ignore most of what you write. I have no interest in decoding posts, even fairly basic ones like this one.

You appear to have forgotten that communication is passing information to other people in a way that they understand. Good communication means less opportunity for misunderstanding.

I rarely agree with much that Mr Burrage posts but in this case he is correct to state that the majority of your posts are unreadable. Unlike him I try to read most posts.

Nigel

mrawa - - Parent

Just to provide a different view point; whilst I struggle with parsing what most people post, I do tend to find that 7b_wizard's style of writing is easier to get an idea of the tone. The way everyone else writes is so clinical.

I sure the content of some of Ethan's posts were brash, but at least he was enthusiastic. Gave the forum a different feel to the same routine of posts I'd constantly see on here on. Kinda got very samey and formulaic. Which tends to be the case when the same people frequent.

If you want more "young blood" to join then we'll need to accept different writing styles and personalities (within reason). Just remember that behind the wall of text there's a real person and there might be a reason they act the way they do. Don't assume everyone is normal, no one is.

.
.
Also quite funny to read these past posts as I usually have Luke blocked/ignored. Made for odd reading.

7b_wizard - - Parent

° ° ° r e l i e f ° ° °

thanks, mrawa! .. yeahj .. I'm not all wrong!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Yeeeh .. write as you speak, folks!

7b_wizard - - Parent

I also don't see a way to "not accept" people speaking how they do and saying what they want unless they don't harm or offend. (in a world-wide forum)

7b_wizard - - Parent

You're not among yourselves here like .. say .. in your club or on a convo, but if all 1000 users started posting whatever their concerns with juggling are, this maledict thread would be gone with the wind in no time.

Little Paul - - Parent

I just thought I'd mention that 7b_wizard's posts have been much more readable recently, and it's worth giving him another try.

7b_wizard - - Parent

This is simply not true.

There were very few posts of mine on complicated topics  ( e.g. "droppists, hobbyists, creativists" versus "perfectionists, non-droppists", e.g. qualifying a trick and qualifying a trick after a trick) , .. topics, which are in themselves highly liable to inflict misunderstandings by inexact writing (\refering).
Most of my posts were - not always easy, I admit - but understandable.

If there was something, you didn't understand, you could have asked! (instead of chewing on it for a while to come out with it in a witchhunt later on joining a choir, right?)

People here post a lot of insider-stuff liable to not be understood by anyone not adept. So if there is a lack of communication issue, it's thoroughly a mutual one. I of course skip these posts as they don't seem any of by business. I wouldn't think of answering one these posts by saying: "Hey, I skipped that!" lol

7b_wizard - - Parent

I'm here as a juggler for juggling and jugglingcontent. Not as a communication expert or english writer going for Pulitzer.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Another "com-mu-ni-ca-tion"-issue:
I had the impression, newbies were even welcomed here if Orin didn't .. it seemed kind'a "his business" even talking to new members on their hi-posts. So where's your "com-mu-ni-ca-tion" then? right.

[
read-my-lips-italics and - quote-marks.
" .. " - just a short speaking pause to fetch new breath.
"his business" - mixed irony and fixed expression italics and quote-marks.
"right" - minuscule at start of sentence where Capital would be required: the sentence before wasn't finished with the question mark.

.. just as you speak it. How do you guys read comics? or do you only read scientific texts and literature? how do you cope with Shakespeare's punctuation???
Jus' leave me alone with that generalizing my posts as all unreadable sh..rubbish, would yer!
]
OMG!!!!!

7b_wizard - - Parent

weren't*

7b_wizard - - Parent

And one more "com-mu-ni-ca-tion"-issue: Why don't you all put all that energy into editing your profiles!

Or post some juggling-content in the first place ..

7b_wizard - - Parent

And btw .. "another try"? .. Else what? Am I on court here? U the judge? What the heck 'd I do to earn all that?

Little Paul - - Parent

Jeeze!

I defend you, pay you a compliment, and suggest that people have another go at reading your posts instead of skipping over them and you fly off the handle!

There's no pleasing some people! :)

7b_wizard - - Parent

yeh, I know. lol. thk!

But you didn't exactly hit the point. Who think, they should skip .. let them skip. As I said before above: I'm mainly writing my posts for those who read them. Not for those who don't lol.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I was also not answering you only, but .. well .. the whole bunch of witchhunters, and them using words like "all, every, always, never, a.s.o." a lot, generalizing a final judgement from one read post only.   [Which is - btw - a consequence of the modern information flood also .. before my inner eye, Bowie appears as "man who fell from the sky" watching like twelve tv-s at a time .. you have to filter somehow].   But mainly answering that "communication"-issue uttered by several.

7b_wizard - - Parent

What exactly did you not understand?

It's Him - - Parent

In the post I replied to I understood what you wrote on the second read through. My problem with that is that is that I don't want to have to read your posts twice or more to understand them. I try not to quickly dismiss a poster as unreadable as often there are communication problems caused by the poster writing in a second language, being dyslexic or writing without editing but it appears that you have a deliberate policy of using non standard ways of expressing yourself. This may make it easier for a few people to read e.g. Ian Mrawa but will definitely make it harder for others. As you often post on subjects on which I have no interest it rarely concerns me but as we are having the rather lengthy meta-discussion I thought it might be good for persons other than the usual posters to express a view. That it was immediately countered by Ian is for me a good thing as I don't mind reading others viewpoints. I have no intention of blocking you or even Ethan but I will tend to skip your posts and only read them if others have made interesting comments. A policy that Luke has also suggested he does.

Nigel

7b_wizard - - Parent

1. burrage publicly states, that he blocked me after finding only one post of mine unreadable.

2. In his post, that I replied to, he calls " a n y  of Ethan's and my texts  b a d ".

3. Now, how can you judge (any) posts "bad", that you haven't even read (due to having blocked me, remember?) ? That was my simplest logic-reply. If you didn't understand that at first reading, well, then, I don't know what exactly was lacking to understand it. Does this only happen with my posts? Honest?

7b_wizard - - Parent

[ "simplest logic-reply"   =   That was my reply using most simple basic evident logic. ]

It's Him - - Parent

I have read you and Ethan. I have not blocked either of you. I understood what you wrote on the second read through.

Nigel

7b_wizard - - Parent

May I read that as admitting that - for whatever reason - you were lacking the whole information to understand that post of mine and having to read it twice? And not me writing bad english with queer punctuation?

Mike Moore - - Parent

I'll chime in: I often have trouble reading your posts because if your strange use of punctuation and formatting. Two recent examples:

" a n y of Ethan's and my texts b a d ".

Another "com-mu-ni-ca-tion"-issue:
I had the impression, newbies were even welcomed here if Orin didn't .. it seemed kind'a "his business" even talking to new members on their hi-posts. So where's your "com-mu-ni-ca-tion" then? right.

Both of these slowed down my reading. When I logged on just now, there were 120 unread messages, and I make a point to read everything here. Thus, I don't like when I have to slow, or worse, re-read something due to someone's deliberate bending/breaking of English.

If I have to slow because the topic is difficult to me, that's my problem. Again, this is probably not new information to you, but it seems like we're casting votes. So that's mine.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Would this, your vote, go so far as to have me banned for doing that?
It's mere formatting issue .. and .. like I said
It's mere formatting issue, and, like I said before
a) you have queer formatting in comic strips,
b) it is a mutual thing: I also don't understand everything and then want to or then have to skip it or ask what it means,
c) [ forgot c writing below first :o| ]
And, I explained what I meant by formatting that way in that post below it in brackets. Well, that didn't avoid slowing its reading down for you then, I admit.

I do think, formatting can make up for a lot of missing mimics, emphasis, ironic tone, undertones, sidethoughts uttered amidst a sentence when speaking .. short: to write like you speak. That's common in modern chat, small talk, short messaging and hasn't made halt from forums and letter-like postings, newsgroup. It's a question of gotten used to it for readers and writers.
I don't for every trifle want to write a scientific style or only just a correct english like being at school or something. It's my credo of gone with the wind writing to whom it may concern to here and there write down what i think or speak in a brainstormish way or like I'd speak it. It reads fresh and not so elaborated when you're open for it as a reader. I am like that!
Be that however - I got a whole lot of complaints about that here now and I have more than once stated I'd account for that and already changed my posts.

I'd be okey if you skipped such posts of mine (just like anyone skips anything, he doesn't understand or wanna go through). I'd welcome if you'd take them two or three seconds to read again or slower if it's a topic that interests you or even ask me what I meant, but regret if you entirely ignored all my posts categorically.

I want to make this clear again ( @ all critics ):
It is impossible that everyone understands everything. Be that content, formatting, abbreviations, specific (juggler's) lingo, insider stuff. I could give a lot of examples where the average juggling forum user wouldn't know what was going on ( IJDb history allusions; allusions to other platforms' content; HLAIB, drops, levels; "Otherwise empty``QFT´´ posts"?; a lot of local club's insider stuff; and many many more ) Picking one or two or a whole set of posts of mine out to make that "the wizard-can't-be-understood-just-like-an-alien-writing-hieroglyphs"-bubble for a witchhunt on me in general is just boosting a trifle to a storm where simple asking what I meant or a "Hey, can you explain that again?" or skipping that one post would have sufficed.

It's really a bubble that shouldn't be fed anymore now, please!
(In this case, it was a distinct example pointed out from you, though, what exactly I had been asking for) Sry 4 the long read!

Mike Moore - - Parent

No, my vote isn't for a ban or suspension or anything like that. It's from one human to another, saying: I'd like to read what you have to say, and I'm finding it difficult. If you changed a couple aspects of how you write, it would be much easier for me (and probably most others). You are under no obligation to help me, but should you be open to helping me, I thought it useful to outline how you could.

I don't like skipping your posts (especially on subjects that I care about) because you often have interesting things to say. It takes me much longer than a typical post, but 95 % of the time I understand them in the end, and most of the time I find them useful.

I'm sorry that using a couple of your posts as examples came across as witch-hunty. I meant them to show certain aspects of your posts that I found difficult. When critiquing an aspect of someone's writing, I try to be specific; otherwise, they might put lots of effort into "fixing" something that was fine in the first place!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Sure. Shouldn't have doubted.

Changing .. trying ..         [ <-- jus' 4 joke that one .. sry 4 slowing you down ;o]p ]

Behalf "changing": Trying to ..

7b_wizard - - Parent

Also .. if no one had stopped me, I think my 'bracketing, interjecting & emphasizing' might even have gotten worse to read - me thinking it would be understood. So, this is a good development for both, readers and me writing.

Chris - - Parent

With all the superfluous punctuation, I prefer to read it as if it was spoken by William Shatner.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Haha .. in "supernatural" or in "the roast of" ?

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. and - btw - "dismiss a post (or poster)" .. OR ask what they meant wasn't ever an option to you, it seems, now? But giving me lessons in "communication" ..

It's Him - - Parent

When I logged onto Juggling Edge today there were more than 60 unread posts for my perusal. I did my best to read them all. I replied only to posts that were replies to my post and I felt needed a response. I don't generally have time (nor the inclination) to ask a poster to explain what they meant. My view is that the obligation is on the poster to try and communicate with their audience and not the reverse. Hopefully all my posts have been understandable on the first reading. I certainly try to make them so. I don't develop a code that others have to interpret to understand my posts. I read through my posts to make sure there are as few spelling mistakes as possible (occasionally I write there instead of their, even though I know the difference, it is a problem I have had since I was about 6). Even so, there are probably people out there who dismiss my posts just because it is me writing. It doesn't worry me. If my dismissing what you write worries you then please try to make your posts clearer. If it doesn't then ignore me and move on.

Nigel

Is now wondering how many people have blocked him and whether Orinocco can create a little table (maybe anonymised apart from person logged in) of numbers of blocks. Just for the fun of it.

Monte - - Parent

Perhaps you could try posting in a foreign language and then see how many people misunderstand you Nigel. Sometimes one has to make allowances.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Thanks. That is actually a point - I do mainly - not always - think german (e.g. nested sentences and thoughts, e.g. lumping substantives together for abbreviation). And I grant the criticism my partly elaborated and highly correct english which makes them think I could do better ( \right ) if only I wanted to, which is not always the case.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I'm also looking forward to days ahead, when e.g. the chinese jugglers discover the Edge and pidgin will be good enough to convey all the relevant content. ;o]p

7b_wizard - - Parent

You're right. And I'm right. I'm using the forum. I contribute or state in different ways.
Vice versa - when reading or skipping - I go by content, not by person. Also when judging. I judge posts, not a person behind it for being what I think they are. (But I'll make an exception °mhehe° for burrage who just won't quit publicly offending and doing it increasingly bluntly all the while giving him the probable benefit of insane genius).

= So, I'm not ignoring you, but I would - on another day - have flown over e.g. this last post of yours here above, then skipped it for being way off any my topics.

Orin has already stated somewhere else, that that there is actually few blocking going on all in all. It's just become a bubble about principles that imho shouldn't be fed.

Brook Roberts - - Parent

My point was it's possible for 1% of the posters to make a lot more than 1% of the posts - it doesn't matter (talking generally here) if only 1% of users are annoying if they make up for it by making 10/20/50% of the posts.

Little Paul - - Parent

I think I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this one, as you clearly see the world in a very different way to me with much less room for nuanced responses to antisocial behaviours.

Feelings of exclusion and marginalisation has led to many followers of Islam becoming radicalised and left them feeling justified for their acts of atrocity

Has godwins law been updated recently? I think it probably needs an extra clause or two.

Monte - - Parent

I have tried really hard to resist rising to your Godwins law comment but after 24hrs I am still irked by it so I am going to have to respond.

Fair enough if it was an inane thread on your favorite colour bean bag and I had pointed out that only a Nazi would choose all white props then Godwins law would be rightly invoked but this is a thread about censorship and exclusion so although my statement was extreme for effect it is hardly irrelevant to the discussion.

I therefore propose an amendment which states; Anyone invoking Godwins law without proper thought to it's relevance shall be deemed to have run away from the debate and no longer be thought to be of value to the discussion.

Orinoco - - Parent

I was going to put in a feature where Marvin would instantly close a thread if Godwin's law was invoked. But I thought, "nah, that'll never happen..."

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Murphy's law?

7b_wizard - - Parent

I'm german.

Not austrian.

;o])

JackJuggles - - Parent

Hold on, has Ethan been banned from the edge?

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Hahaha - best post winnarrrr!

To answer, yes he has, but not if you didn't notice.

Ethan - - Parent

Ahh. Monte, thank you for standing up for me. I can appreciate someone who stands up for what they believe in, and what they believe to be right. However, I would like to state that in no way was I "Censored". As Li'll Paul has said, Orin just took my toy fire engine away for a bit.

I believe I was standing up for the Wiz and myself, and I believe that I should stand up for what is right. However, I may have not delivered my opinion in the correct way, that is true....I do NOT have the right to flood a forum, and I'm sorry my actions pissed some people off.

I see that my words had no effect on Luke whatsoever. You can not change someones behaviour, only Luke can change his behaviour. And it appears Luke has not looked at himself and realized that he sounds like a jerk.

And Monte, you were right about my feeling of bitterness and anger...When Orin first blocked me, my first action was to beat all of Orin's records on video, and then make a rap song dissing Luke...I did that, and the video is still sitting on my desk top....Why don't I post it? I will never post it because during my ban from the edge, I realized and heard a few things that changed me...

My juggling coach told me during one of my lessons, "Don't just juggle for the competition and to beat people, juggle because you love to juggle." After my lesson I realized something, I don't juggle because I love to juggle, I juggle because I want to be THE best. I juggle because I want to beat people, and I want to beat records...This is no longer what I am going do. Because my juggling coach was right, I need to juggle because I love to juggle. So, from now until my death, I will NEVER post a record again. Even if I juggle 9 balls for 20 mins, I will never post it....

The other thing I realized during my time away from the edge, is that I'm not part of a juggling community in real life...When I was banned, I felt a sense of loneliness. I don't really have any good friends, and I don't go to juggling clubs, so it's obvious why I felt that way. Behind the computer screen, I am a dude who (in real life) thinks before he says anything, and is not viewed as immature. I am immature behind the computer screen, and I fully realize this fact...This is not the first time I've been banned from a site...And every time I'm banned it's for the same reason. And that reason is my anger that blows when somebody says something that pisses me off. I don't like it when people are rude to me or to other people...Infact I especially hate it when people are rude to other people! It annoys me...I believe that Luke was rude. I don't like it when people act as if they are above other people. And that is how Luke was acting, and is exactly how he is still acting.

The last thing I would like to say is: Thank you Orin for giving me another chance, I know I have been given many. But I'm glad you still believe that I can change...I will try to tone things down, and I will try to engage in actual conversation instead of being an annoying troll.

Orinoco - - Parent

Welcome back!

This I have to say is by far my favourite thing that has ever been posted to the Edge. Thank you.

For anyone that has Ethan on ignore, please unblock to at least read this post. You won't regret it.

...but I'd love to see that video!

lukeburrage - - Parent

I have no idea how to unblock people. I've looked all over and can't find a link or list of blocked people anywhere.

peterbone - - Parent

It took me a while to find it too. Click 'Me' in the menu. Then click 'View all users'. Then find the person you blocked, go to their profile page and unblock them

Little Paul - - Parent

That could probably be improved, the list of who you're ignoring should be all in one place - like on your profile or settings page

But meta is over ---> there

Orinoco - - Parent

Indeed it can, from the home page or your profile:

Settings > Other settings pages > Manage blocked users Manage blocked users and threads

lukeburrage - - Parent

Thanks. Ethan is unblocked. 7b_wizard was unblocked for a single reading of this forum, and I've had no problems with blocking him again almost immediately. Sorry if that offends anyone, but I just can't cope with it all.

The Void - - Parent

Welcome back, Ethan.

Nice post.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

"and then make a rap song dissing Luke..."

You got me laughing out loud! Thanks for making my day :), I hope I can get a copy of that through the dark sides of the net some day...!

Welcome back, don't worry about all the fuss. I cringe when I read back what 14 year old Daniel posted on the web, even still what 18 or 22 year old Daniel posted!

emilyw - - Parent

I am forever glad to belong to the generation of people who were unable to post stupid shit on the web when we were teenagers because we didn't know it existed.

Welcome back Ethan, I hope you're able to get to a convention sometime.

Little Paul - - Parent

Lucky you, the shit I posted back in the 90s makes me cringe

7b_wizard - - Parent

Was it fun at least?

Monte - - Parent

Welcome back Ethan. I'm very glad you have decided to come back and I am glad you are a big enough man to admit your mistake. The fact than Luke is not big enough to admit his mistakes is his problem not yours. I suggest you take a leaf out of his book an choose to ingnore him. I also feel you should stand up for what you believe just remember that personal attacks do not further your argument and even if you are attacked in a personal way yourself it is far better to rise above it and let them be judged on what they have said rather than sink to their level.

Also don't be afraid to post off topic in future as it keeps me much more entertained than dry discussions of pure juggling content.

I'd also like to take this chance to thank Orin for giving you a chance to redeme yourself, perhaps in the future this will be afforded to all users regardless of their age,longevity on the site or their ability to form a coherant sentence.

ChrisD - - Parent

Well said Ethan. Thanks for the apology re flooding, fully accepted by me (noting as Monte said that I can't speak for anyone else!)

I'm considerably older than you, but I still find it hard not to antagonise people online at times (usually over politics not juggling). I usually start out with the best of intentions and then, like you, sometimes overreact to something someone says. In fact your very good post above reminds me I should go and apologise to a friend over an over-critical reaction to something they said only yesterday.

I hope you and Luke patch things up too, and I'm sure you won't regret it if you do.

Monte - - Parent

Actually I said you can't speak for everyone. It is possible to speak for someone if you know them well enough' I was just pointing out that you couldn't know how the whole community thinks.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Wow!

"love to juggle" - wonderful!

" [..] sounds like a jerk." - .. [ choir : ] sounds like jerk praise the lord.

" [..] NEVER post a record again." - ?? oh. Hope your coach will casually find a chinese saying implying that records, winning at combat or in any competition or challenge are not bad 'in themselves' !

..

@ all doubters & blockers & skip-ers [else 't is "skippers" hm] :
I can appreciate someone who stands up for what they believe in, and what they believe to be right.
.. now who's the grown-up character? And who was "annoying"?

@ Ethan: I don't think, your 'whole person or personality' was at stake .. just that one bunch of flood-posts.

peterbone - - Parent

Welcome back. That was a great post and very well considered. However, I hope that you eventually come to a compromise and post some of your records. I suggest that you think of it simply as a way of tracking the progress of the tricks that you're most interested in.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I suggest, he think of it as "beating the world's best" .. with "love" then .. °mhehe°

No, serious .. competition is part of the fun and the love of juggling. And I remember one trick that Ethan gave up on, granting his opp that one record .. so [oupps, sry! Fullstop.] .   So, respecting your opp's achievements allows for a lot of hard but fair competition. Also, there is not "the one best" in juggling, but several of them with own specialities or in their distinct discipline.

Richard Loxley - - Parent

That's a shame that you're not part of a juggling community in real life.

What country do you live in? Hopefully there are some clubs or conventions that you could get to. It's definitely worth it. Most of my social life revolves around jugglers I met at clubs and conventions, even if they don't juggle any longer!

Julius - - Parent

Welcome back Ethan.

Please consider posting records for the fun of it, not to beat people.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. or not beat the people, but only their record  Xo[  °doh°

lukeburrage - - Parent

Thanks Ethan, for posting this. I didn't mean to be rude when comparing your posts to 7b_wizards. It's just combined with his, your collected posts were becoming too hard to process. Sorry for any offense.

Also, since then, I've not had any bad feelings towards you, or any beef at all. Nothing personal at all. Your sudden flood against me was just a bit much, and once I discovered the ignore feature, it seemed way easier to remove the problem via software, not using a mental filter. That might not have been the best course of action, as I might have missed any improvement from you or any discussion that might have helped diffuse the situation more diplomatically.

So welcome back!

Monte - - Parent

Hurray, problems resolved, apologies all round and no hard feelings.

Maybe I should apply for that post at the U.N. after all. I could have that little Sunni- Shia problem sorted out in under a week.

So cats versus dogs anyone? I fancy breaking the record for the longest ever thread on the edge.

Monte - - Parent

ok no takers on cats v dogs then. I'll try something closer to your hearts.

Biscuits v cookies then?

By the way nearly all the recipes for biscuits posted on here are actually cookies. I'm sure you don't need me to explain biscuit means twice cooked in French.

pumpkineater23 - - Parent

Hey, welcome back Ethan!

Little Paul - - Parent

I'm on my phone today rather than a proper computer, and this deserves a longer reply than I can stomach typing on my phone...

That said, welcome back! and thank you for responding positively rather than rage quitting :)

Oh, and please don't give up posting your records,
but perhaps just post your actual records instead of gaming it? Everyone wins then.

Maria - - Parent

I just wanted to comment on the part about you juggling to beat people and beat records. I find it a bit funny how different people can be. I mean, sure, I like it when I can impress someone (usually non-jugglers) with my juggling, but being the best or beating records has never mattered to me. Well... To be honest, I wouldn't really have a chance if I wanted that either, since I started juggling at age 30. I want to become better than I am mostly to be as good as the other jugglers in my club, to be able to do more advanced passing patterns. Actually, one of my favourite things about juggling is that it is so non-competitive. Most jugglers I know don't see juggling competitions as something important. Most jugglers I meet are happy to share tricks and give advice about how I can improve my technique.

I use the "records" on the Edge only to track my own progress, and so far only for my 4 clubs juggling, because that is what I am working on the most. I don't see any reason not to post any records at all, I probably would too if I found one that I knew I can beat, but I practice what I want to learn and juggle the patterns that are fun to me, I don't care if a thousand people can already do those things way better than me. Well, I guess I'm just not a very competitive person.

Oh, and I do hope that you can find your way to the IRL juggling community too, because it's an awesome community! I have felt very welcome since I was a beginner (really... at my first juggling convention I found it difficult to throw a "double" from a 3-club cascade...). Besides, passing is the best kind of juggling, and that is difficult to learn without other jugglers. ;)

bad1dobby - - Parent

Welcome back Ethan and congrats on your very thoughtful, honest and brave post.

I also want to add my vote of confidence for Orin - I think Ethan's return post is clear evidence that you made the right call in this situation.

(I know I'm a few days behind - I've been a bit scared of this thread)

 

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