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Cedric Lackpot -

Frank Zappa playing the bi-cycle on TV in '63, because why not?

Nowt to do with juggling; everything to do with what live performance once was. This is a curiosity par excellence from the Steve Allen show, featuring a very youthful Frank Zappa - as the man says, that's Z-A-P-P-A - who is nonetheless characteristically individual. It left me wishing that modern video could be this ingenuous and carefree from time to time.

https://youtu.be/1MewcnFl_6Y

7b_wizard - - Parent

Gilligan?

Little Paul - - Parent

That was charmingly mental.

7b_wizard - - Parent

Experi-mental I say.

mtb - - Parent

Utterly lunacy; I loved it.

I think my favourite bit was the orchestra messing with Steve Allen when he blew through the handlebar....

Someone should look at bringing this back for a Renegade show.

Cedric Lackpot -

The Art of Misdirection - a super-secret members-only website that reveals the secrets of magic, and which includes a section on juggling too. Loved and cherished by its members; reviled for copyright infringement and IP theft by its detractors.

One the one hand this Business Insider article is all gushy clickbait nonsense, on the other it makes some interesting reading if you can be bothered to wade through all the hyperbole. When I first began reading it I thought "Wouldn't it be cool if there was something similar for juggling?" but then I remembered the old adage about juggling being like magic except you can see the tricks, and concluded there would not really be a need for such secrecy. But no, it goes on to say it has a section devoted to juggling.

As to whether the thing actually exists in the manner described is a little more debatable. That private tracker sites exist seems a pretty mundane premise; that this particular one is the hardest of all to enter is just risible. To my mind it is highly unlikely that if such a thing existed as described, there wouldn't have been at least one or two credible or verifiable data breaches which would have alerted the wider world to its existence, or at least tip offs by disgruntled former members. But it's an attractive idea nevertheless and one hopes there is a kernel of truth to it, albeit very likely in a less cloak-and-dagger form.

LP may well be interested in this; David Cain will likely have his life completely ruined by not knowing what is contained in the juggling section. Oh, and Dick Franco is gonna be super pissed if Bobby May is in there somewhere.

Here's the Reddit thread I stole the link from.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Oh no, you made me open your save, now I lost mine as I didn't save my link!

Little Paul - - Parent

If, for instance, you wanted a copy of the instructions for David Copperfield's famous levitation trick, this might be where you would start.

Sure, if you were an idiot and didn't realise the whole thing is described in detail in the patent - which is public.

Spoiler: it uses wires

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

I suspect the secret to much of Copperfield's magic is not so much wires as lawyers.

Little Paul - - Parent

I've always thought the most magical bit of Copperfields performance was the way his hair blows in the wind so majestically, even when he's indoors...

"Flying" is an interesting one, as although the method is out there in so much detail, it's such an expensive rig to build/run and so impractical to tour - that he really is the only one who can afford to perform it. I'm told that seen "live" in a theatre it really is spectacular - but on video, it always feels a bit "meh"

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Copperfields trademark is the wind through his hair?
I always thought this was a Hans Klok thing, a Dutch illusionist... There are even commercials about it, which say that there is always free energy around Hans!
https://youtu.be/B8-XbOxm_2U

bad1dobby - - Parent

I saw "Flying" live when Copperfield toured Australia a decade ago. I found it less impressive than the video version. Took me a while to work out why, I think it's because seen live he is clearly constrained to the stage area, which kills the sense of freedom that the video version gives (for me, anyway).
On opening night in Adelaide, as the flying began there was a loud twang, and the curtain was brought in. A few minutes later the show resumed with the next routine - no flying that night!

Little Paul - - Parent

Of course, http://uk.businessinsider.com/inside-art-of-misdirection-ultra-exclusive-private-torrent-tracker-magical-pirates-invites-2016-11?r=DE&IR=T is the link to the business insider, rather than whatever it was you linked to.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Derp. Yerp.

Although the Click thing is mildly diverting.

Stupid non-editable Edge postings. There should at the very least be a means of placing a postscript in the original post.

The Void - - Parent

I just wish there was a way of poof weeding the post before pressing the Post button.

Michae115 -

I listen to hour long dubstep mixes on Youtube when I practice juggling but I am getting board of them. Does anybody have some genre suggestions. I like the music to be instrumental (little to no vocals) and upbeat.

Michae115 - - Parent

Also I'm probably getting ahead of myself but what club trick should I learn after I get the ones I'm practicing down (doubles and kick ups). I'm thinking backcrosses but I don't know if that's a leap in trick difficulty.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Backcrosses are very difficult, but require not really any prerequisites so you can start practising whenever you like!
Other tricks I'd suggest: half spin cascade, columns, flat front half shower, oh shits, low doubles, under arm throws, 423 with variations in 2's such as flips, thumbspins and flourishes

As for music:
Well there are other genres that are similar to dubstep... Trance, techno, and all of their subgenres etc.
However, I find some less electronic, less repetitive and more melodic instrumental music more interesting myself.
A random list of artists you could look up, selected for active beats & little vocals:
Royksopp
Analogik
Caravan Palace
Parov Stellar
Sound Nomaden
Cassian
Vitalic
Simian Mobile Disco
Justice
Digitalism

I hope that gets you started on finding something you like to juggle to :)

7b_wizard - - Parent

Minimal Music, Philipp Glass? .. Spacy stuff, Tangerine Dream? .. Carols Santana, album "Caravanserai"? .. Jazzrock?

Little Paul - - Parent

I have similar requirements for my work playlist although I'm less strict about the no vocals thing.

Today, I am mostly listening to:
- various ragga/jungle remixes by Ed Solo & Deekline (There are several mixes on youtube, they're all a lot of fun - their remix of Ghost Town by the specials is marvelous)
- Cut Chemist - Rare Equations (sample heavy, non-vocal hip-hop style mix built from funk/jazz/rare-groove)
- Aphrodite - Aphrodite (Proper dirty wobbly DnB)

I have a cracking album of

Little Paul - - Parent

Hmm. Looks like I buggered up the html input. Orin - I don't suppose you can dig out what I attempted to post and fix it up can you?

Orinoco - - Parent

Er... unfortunately not. Doesn't look like you buggered it up sufficiently for it to my usual watch scripts.

Little Paul - - Parent

Arse. I'll try and remember it and post the rest of it later then.

Little Paul - - Parent

OK, broad brush of what I intended to post continuing from: I have a cracking album of...

...upbeat, non-vocal covers of disco classics played on a hammond organ (Duke Grant - Hammond Disco) which is excellent fun, but I can't find it on youtube.

If I'm in a nostalgic mood, and want to feel like I'm at a convention in the UK from near the beginning of my time I'll put on Prodigy - Experience/Music for a Jilted Generation or leftfield - leftism, as they were pretty much standard festival soundtrack material at the time.

If you like dubstep, you might find some of the ragga/jungle/DnB/UK Rave stuff from the 1990s acceptable. Search for any of those with "classics" (eg "UK Rave classics") and you'll find a boatload of hour long mixes which are mostly at least minimal-vocal.

Oh, and if you enjoyed the Aphrodite suggestion - and if you're a fan of epic drops, you *have* to listen to the DJ Detweiler remix of the DnB classic Super Sharp Shooter by Ganja Kru. It's not an hour long mix, but it is on youtube, and the drop at 1:19 is the sickest, most epic drop you'll ever hear!

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

+severalmillion for Aphrodite, a singular white boy from Glasgeh IIRC. Start with Urban Jungle, move on to Urban Junglist. I can highly recommend a 2k rig and Man Of Steal, old skool noise at its rollicking best.

Little Paul - - Parent

oh, and in a similar vein - Pendulum.

Although that can get a bit samey

mtb - - Parent

"their remix of Ghost Town by the specials is marvelous"

This was pretty great.

I remember you once posted something similar in ##juggling with horns/trumpets in that I quite liked. Any chance you recall what that was? I assume that there was more.

Michae115 -

Hello, this is the first juggling forum I've ever posted to. I live in the Midwest of the United States and would like to go to a juggling festival if there is one nearby. I am currently learning/practicing the 3 club cascade, club kick ups, and club throws with a double spin.

Michae115 - - Parent

Also I would appreciate any tips for the things I'm currently practicing. I've learned everything I know so far about juggling from YouTube videos (mostly expertvillage and Niels Duinker) but that gives me broad instructions and no feedback. The kick up tutorials I've watched offer little detail. I find my kick ups either spin horizontally instead of vertically meaning they don't flip or they flip but fly off to my right or left (depending on which leg I use) and don't stay close to my body. My double spins, not circus doubles, are all over the place. I try to keep the spin the same as my regular 3 club cascade but through it twice as high. And I still don't know how to recover from catching the club at the bulb instead of the handle. Do I throw it with half a spin or a spin and a half? Should I throw double to give me more time to sort it out? Sorry about all the questions but I am getting frustrated.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Hi Michae1,

Here's a tip - Niels Duinker is a good guy who is very, very good at his art, but drop Expert Village like a hot potato, a lot of their videos are excruciatingly inexpert and you can do much better if you look around.

Maybe try the wonderful Juggling TV for starters? Also check out /r/juggling on reddit, the various groups on Facebook such Juggling Rock and, er, all the others (I don't really like FB very much). And don't restrict yourself to instructional videos, allow yourself to be inspired by all manner of stuff.

Oh yeah, welcome to The Edge!

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Hi Michael,
For kick ups - make sure that you're placing the club consistently and that most of the movement is vertical. Your sole should stay mostly parallel to the ground and your foot should come straight up towards your backside - not sideways.
For doubles you need to throw higher - to get an object to spend twice as much time in the air (and therefore spin twice as many times) you need to throw it four times higher. Because physics.
I found 1.5 spin recoveries easier when I was beginning, but all the classy jugglers use half spins, so I had to change to fit in with the cool kids ;o). Take your pick.
Good luck!
-Mike

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi Michae1,

all I know is - and I'm a rookie myself on clubs - :   aim the club's mass center only (a bit like the club were sort of a a spoon with the weight on it). Hope it helps ( as you said they land all over the place ) !

aawray - - Parent

I recomend you to watch Lauri Koskinen tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/user/viljo/videos

mtb - - Parent

Thanks for these. Look pretty good.

Michae115 - - Parent

Thanks for the advice.

Andrew Russell -

Hey, Orinoco says I should introduce myself and I tend not to disobey wombles. I attend the Circus Mash club with Tom Derrick (although this term you wouldn't know it because work's kept me pretty busy. I also wander across to Nuneaton and circus there most weeks. I'm hoping to go to the Milton Keynes in a few weeks and am currently trying to fix my unicycle.

Orinoco - - Parent

I tend not to disobey wombles

Good man! Welcome to the Edge, please make yourself at home.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Hi Andrew,

What's the Nuneaton club like? I've toyed with going over there for years but never made it. Is it still on Friday nights? Is John Parnell still the main man there?

Colin E. -

I've just stumbled on some juggling on the One Show where they were exploring the physical limits of juggling, with their crude measurements of juggling by someone called 'Josh', reaching the conclusions that 15 is the limit.

Very odd.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

More odd that you can't namecheck Josh Turner, or Alex Barron for that matter. And they also wheeled Colin E. Wright out of the Superannuated Jugglers' Retirement Castle for yet another free lunch.

But yeah, a very odd segment to have on a light entertainment show so light that they have to peg it down to stop it blowing away.

Colin E. - - Parent

I only caught the last 30secs. I'd assumed they had name-checked Alex Barron at some point earlier in the segment. I don't think I saw the bit with Colin Wright on either.

Colin D Wright - - Parent

> And they also wheeled Colin E. Wright ...

That's Colin *D* Wright ...

> ... out of the Superannuated Jugglers'
> Retirement Castle for yet another free
> lunch.

I'm rather sorry you see me that way.

> ... very odd segment to have on a light
> entertainment show so light that they
> have to peg it down to stop it blowing
> away.

I don't know how much television work you've done, but the producers always have their own agenda, and it can be significant work to make them move away from it. I felt it better to have a hand in moving them away from their original suggestions to have something that at least approximates the physics underlying the difficulties you get when trying to juggle large numbers.

Jack Kalvan's extended essay/thesis[0] was much more comprehensive, but at least this touched on some of the issues, and didn't just say "Ooh, lots of balls. Tricky." I still didn't get half the points I wanted, but it did mention the issues of congestion, and the balance between greater height (which gives you more time, but requires greater accuracy) and faster juggling (which gives you less time, but leaves less time for the balls to deviate off their intended trajectories).

There is so much more, but in a five minute slot intended for a non-juggling, non-technical audience, scripted and produced by non-juggling and non-technical people, I think it's rather better than it might have been.


[0] http://www.juggling.org/papers/OJ/

Little Paul - - Parent

I felt it better to have a hand in moving them away from their original suggestions

Ooh! That sounds interesting, what we're they originally suggesting?

I have a somewhat morbid fascination with the way TV producers (especially daytime TV producers) put shows together...

lukeburrage - - Parent

Just yesterday and today I was replying to emails from a British TV production company wanting an expert juggler to analyze some trick or something or another.

peterbone - - Parent

Yeah, thanks a lot for passing them to me!

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

>> ... out of the Superannuated Jugglers'
>> Retirement Castle for yet another free
>> lunch.

> I'm rather sorry you see me that way.

Oops, rumbled!

Allow me to reveal the other side of the coin :-

I originally saw your site swap lecture at the Mathematical Society at the University of Leicester during, I think, autumn term '89 or '90. It was to my young eyes brilliant and illuminating, and I went home and played with some of the mathematics I understood, and played with the numbers and the diagrams, and experimented with 441 which I seem to remember you cited as a pattern which you had discovered with SS. It was genuinely revelatory and I am grateful to this day for that early introduction to site swap theory.

I then saw your lecture once again at Leicester University in the early or mid noughties, and blow me down, it seemed to me to be very much the same! Well, the same but for the evolution that time and repetition imposes. By the by, that kind of evolution is something that I employed unashamedly during my street theatre career in the early nineties and I think it is a really great way to keep the presentation of material of any kind fresh and engaging, both for audience and performer. I trust you were remunerated for both which prompted my remark about free lunches.

So, whilst I will always remain an irreverant curmudgeon, my bark is essentially worse than my bite and I think it is fair to thank you profusely for the immense contribution you made to my life as a juggler on the occasion of that first lecture. I am also pretty pleased to have seen you popping up on The One Show - bewildered that such a segment should appear on the soufflé-light One Show, but pleased nevertheless. And I was also surprised by the amount of unambiguous science that made it into the final cut, well done, but heaven knows what the man on the Clapham omnibus made of it all.

In short, you have my esteem, and I have a bloody peculiar way of showing it, but there you go. Thank you Colin, please continue to venture from the retirement castle as often as you wish, and if ever our paths should cross again you may tap me up for lunch, you deserve it.

7b_wizard - - Parent

[From the "OJ" article:]  Hand motion must correspond to the positions and velocities of the balls during throws and catches, but I will not analyze this motion in-depth because accurately modeling the dynamics of a human arm would be next to impossible.

That is exactly what would be interesting .. levers, thrust gained by differently long parts of the arm moving together coherently, - and it is engineer's, mathematician's, physicist's, anatomist's, 's and biokinematician's task  ( kinematic chain;   degrees of freedom;   articulated robotic arm;   321 kinemtic structure;   arm solution;   biomechanic ) - it's complex, nonlinear mathematics with more than two variables - applying the law of gravity only isn't the hard part.

Then,  I believe that the hands must conform to the juggling pattern much like an expert typist's hands conform to the keyboard layout. .. Yes, but vice versa: ergonomically designed and shaped keyboards form after how typing is made easiest and least stressing, .. so there might be (I'm sure, there are) options to adapt the pattern to how it's most easily handled with optimally ``relaxed \relaxing´´ movements as much as would go.   #physicalLimits  ( I'm there thinking of e.g. the 3d-component and-or where at all to sustain and `balance´, catchthrow-technique and many more, anything easening the `rolling´of the pattern ).

However, I welcome any effort on revealing the secrets of optimal juggling and attempts to find some notable scientific statements.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. so, the ``best, optimal´´ geometric and physical pattern that is e.g. least collision prone, or best spaced, or has the best height-speed ratio under gravity's law, might not be the best one to actually really juggle practically - just like the ``best´´ order of keys on a keyboard  (that takes least space, or that behaves to cartesian coordinates, or that gets least interference and typos with fat fingers )  is often not the most ergonomic.

7b_wizard - - Parent

.. and that is, because the juggler knows and sees which ``hotspots´´ to focus on (eye-hand-brain-prop coordination) and need his special attention and are e.g. emergencies when correcting, focus priorities coped with within milliseconds. Surely also a good sense for chaos management. #holyGrailOfShaolinJuggling

peterbone - - Parent

I did my MSc thesis on an evolutionary juggler that learnt optimal juggling patterns using a genetic algorithm based on energy used and collisions. I might be able to dig it out somewhere. I'm sure it could be improved on a lot to include a better physics engine and model of the human body.

7b_wizard - - Parent

That's a great approach when you have the means (a robot or android or a good simulation). Evolutionary algorithms are perfect for finding solutions in chaos or complexity.

I remember a "3DOF robot learns (how?) to juggle (3 balls?)" video (?) somewhere on the netz, but I never got to watch it and it seems to be gone.

It would still be a challenge, though, to find out and transpose to us normals, what exactly the machine would be doing when fully optimized ..

7b_wizard - - Parent

*when = once, it's fully optimized

Mïark - - Parent

You can see the clip at www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04b9v31

The Void - - Parent

http://juggling.tv/16119

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thanks, couldn't watch this on BBC!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Sounds perfectly coherent to me ( higher or faster, in theory  or  both, in practise ).

And  half of them hanging there at the top of the pattern, and they all have to miss each other  and  congested top of the arc  get it well IMHO.  ( Also four times the height for the slower tick, tick, tick lol is about in range when not considering (different) dwell-times. )

Then, those 15 maximum number of balls aren't like a ``final verdict´´, but  in theory  projected for Josh's 7 meters height and 8 throws/second speed - so for Barron it'd surely be 19 or 21 (lol?) I reckon.

I enjoyed that vid very much.

7b_wizard - - Parent

*for Barron .. or peterbone, of course (goes by itself) ;o)

peterbone - - Parent

I don't believe that 15 will ever be done (under normal conditions, on earth, by a human). Most numbers jugglers agree with me. Alex is undecided.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I believe that for specialists in stacked duplexes like Koblikov and Sarafian, enhancing their 7b cascade to fourteen ball [77]s is within the possible .. but, well, multiplexing doesn't count in this context. Yet, another step from there ( [77]s ) would be like 2d[db], which looks like, well, "really many" and ``not so multiplexed´´, but outch, that's `only´ thirteen balls :o]

DavidCain -

I'm looking for two Beard Beach juggling clubs for the Museum of Juggling History. If anyone has one or two they could donate, please let me know. I'm also looking for a Henry's Sparkler club and a Freaks Unlimited Jester Club (club / beanbag hybrid). Thanks.
David Cain

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Still looking for Freak's Jesters? Blimey, you've been after those for years haven't you? I really ought to get the old flight case out of the garage, that contains all the University's old juggling stuff, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a musty Beach or two lurking in there.

DavidCain - - Parent

Yes, I'm still looking for the Jester club. Only 100 were ever made. I need a beach or two because that was the first retail multi-piece club with a one piece flex handle. I would appreciate it if you took a look. Thanks.
David

charlieh - - Parent

The Beach clubs were definitely multi-piece....I once passed one to someone and it arrived in multiple pieces. For some reason quite a few people bought them as their first clubs, and they'd quickly discover the benefits of a soft handle were not enough to make up for their general rubbishness, so moved onto hard handled clubs such as Spotlight Europeans. These were a lot heavier than modern clubs and I still have mine somewhere as they're useful for windy days!

Orinoco - - Parent

Are you sure you want some Beard beach clubs? Would be a shame to devalue your collection.

I'm pretty certain all the ones we had at TWJC left us when we sold off most of our kit a few years ago but will double check.

KStruthers - - Parent

I think I still have three of those from when I first bought clubs and thought they were a good idea a few years ago. I'll have a look and if I do you are welcome to them.

DavidCain - - Parent

Thanks.
David

Stephen Meschke -

Time to rest after wisdom tooth extraction.

I have just had four wisdom teeth extracted. How long should I wait before juggling?

Little Paul - - Parent

2weeks 3days and 4hours

Not a second more

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

That's oddly specific and absolutely infuriating. There's no way I'm going to wait that long!

The Void - - Parent

No, I'm sure he's right. You wouldn't want to ignore the advice of some guy on the internet on a matter as important as this, would you?

peterbone - - Parent

After my wisdom tooth extraction I went juggling to relax. I assume you only had local anesthetic?

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

I had local anesthetic before surgery, and now I am taking Ibuprofen.

I have a lot of energy and desire to juggle, but due to swelling I can't look up.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Time to become a godmaster of bounce juggling methinks.

Mike Moore - - Parent

This is so outside of my imagination...after my wisdom teeth extraction I bled for about half a week and was catatonic for days. It took me about a week to be able to even want to juggle.

lukeburrage - - Parent

I had two wisdom teeth removed two days before flying out to Denmark for the EJC in 2003. I was taking painkillers and other drugs throughout, and didn't drink at all, but it remains one of my all time favourite juggling conventions.

peterbone - - Parent

Maybe because I only had one removed. I remember thinking that there would be a lot of pain when the anesthetic wore of, but there was very little. After a couple of days there was no pain at all. Having 4 removed at once must be horrible with regards to eating.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Indeed...I didn't eat much the day of or day after, and after that it was smoothies for each meal. Given how much I liked smoothies, I was surprised I got sick of them as quickly as I did.

In hindsight, day-of was such an amazing mix of sensations. The dentist recommended putting tea bags in the bleeding areas (all four). There I was, on painkillers, tasting extreme bitterness, exhausted. But then, restless from the caffeine, as I normally have little to no caffeine in a day (probably ~10 mg).

I think it's a shame I don't remember it clearly, as I like recalling times of extreme emotion or sensations to set benchmarks and appreciate how robust humans are.

7b_wizard - - Parent

You could ask your dentist, what the risks are in your case when doing serious sport.

Stephen Meschke - - Parent

The followup appointment is on Tuesday. I am going to wait for the doctor's permission before attempting toss juggling.

7b_wizard - - Parent

I'd ask about blood pressure, high pulse and fairly healed wounds breaking open by doing sports .. get him to talk about any risk their might be.
Maybe two phone calls (ask his help the question and get the answer from her later without contact with the dentist himself) will do for a clear "yes you can" or "No!" or "Must see on Tuesday first. Please wait.".

Cedric Lackpot -

Slacklining - easy peasy. Even a dog could do it.

https://i.imgur.com/SYoHIJs.gifv

peterbone - - Parent

84MB GIF. Please someone remove this!

Orinoco - - Parent

Sorted!

Lukedaviesss -

Anyone know what the most amount of catches in async is with 10 balls?

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

Is it perhaps 23?

7b_wizard - - Parent

Not exactly the answer, but some 10b context is here with videos linked for catches done, claims and tricks (including yours, which you maybe not know of being linked there), that you can check.   Async ftn leads to a Garfield video (but only 17 catches if I counted right). Ferman does his 26 c in wimpy. Dan Wood 24 c synch ftn. Daniel Eaker's 22 c are synch ftn. Rumford and Gatto claimed 20 c without explicitly telling the pattern). Dietz claimed 28 c on synch.

7b_wizard - - Parent

[*videos linked "incl. yours" - not tricks, sry]

James Hennigan - - Parent

If Gatto got 20 catches it was probably in asynch. I've never seen him try any other pattern.

Lukedaviesss - - Parent

Is there video evidence of the 23 catches?:)

DavidCain - - Parent

Jason Garfield, 20 catches of async fountain - https://youtu.be/Lik27AjCyMQ?start=48

7b_wizard - - Parent

Thx 4 fixing! [ I'm not even trained to count props above 7 :o) ]

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