BJC2025
We’re devastated that the original plan for BJC 2025 will not go ahead BUT all is not lost and there is some interest in still making it happen.
Time is short to organise an event of BJCs magnitude, but ‘we’ (past organisers) want to do as much as we can to support anyone considering taking it on. We’ve created some resources to help any aspiring team put together a bid for 2025, or beyond.
There is a BJC 'Manual' in the pipeline and a collective of experienced past organisers willing to advise and guide where necessary.
We will be happy to administer a tendering process if there is more than one prospective team for 2025.
If you are interested in running BJC2025 please check the links in the comments for a BJC Bid guide and venue checklist.
Tender Guide (Is comment-able, should be possible to duplicate or print)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lmY7xfJPmMgVM2M2iH1edR2wcoo_YyPjGduVdKIIrsU/edit?usp=sharing
Venue Checklist (Is comment-able, should be possible to duplicate or print)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vLAnSlIBN2XBoE0vKBpIWHAE_WF_egxHAd247WyLyq8/edit?usp=sharing
Hi every one😊
⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️⭕️
RustyJuggling - - Parent #
Hello. I also really enjoyed your workshop in Green Bay. I've got to say, your 13 ring flash is probably the craziest thing I've ever seen.
The BJC 2025 organising team have been unable to find a venue for the 2025 British Juggling ConventionThe British Juggling Convention - BJC
·
I'm very sorry to announce that unfortunately, the BJC event we were planning for 16 to 20 April 2025 will not go ahead.
The venue we had planned pulled out with no notice and for the past three months we've been working to find a replacement. Unfortunately, alternative venues we've spoken to did not have availability to host an event like the BJC.
We are a volunteer team working on a not-for-profit event. The strain of trying to resolve the issue has taken a toll - dedicating as much time as possible whilst juggling health, family, work and life's unexpected challenges.
As the organiser, I'm truly disappointed and sorry that we won't be able to bring this event to you in 2025.
We'll be working hard to come back with more exciting events in the future.
Thank you for your understanding.
(repeated here for Juggling Edge people not on facebook)
#BJC2025
Hello, I'm new to the juggling edge.
At the moment I'm working on 5 clubs, 7 balls, (in theory 6 rings...,) and being a generally better juggler. I'm super interested in theory, I've put a lot of effort into studying transformations between siteswaps and stuff in that realm.
Hi & welcome, Rusty.
Most probably you then know about Ben Beever's Axioms of juggling for transforming siteswaps.
RustyJuggling - - Parent #
I wish!
Information about juggling can be harder to find than it should be.
The axioms really interesting. My first thought is with the axioms about switching any two throws. I think you could put patterns into a kind of path/orbit notation to make that transformation really easy to visualize. Like 441, notated as (destination in the pattern)/(# of orbits) would be 2/1 3/1 1/0, and then if you switched the second and third throws it would just be 2/1 1/0 3/1 (IE; 423) with no addition or subtraction needed. So I guess to put that into terms of an axiom you could use a different prefix, like if we call that notation D/O, axiom 2 might look like
A2: DO(abc)- DO(acb)
Unrelated to that, you could also construct a multiplex-making axiom like:
A(m): SS(A), SS(B)- SS([AB])
where A and B have the same period.
I think there might also be an axiom for converting negative throws into multiplexes? Testing 55-1 and 44-2 to 5[51][22] and [42]4[11] with D/O shows a pretty nice pattern but I'm not sure how it would be converted into axiom notation, because throws with different destinations would end up multiplexing with different throws.
That might be a weakness with the axiom notation, I think, is that it struggles to show every application of a given transformation, even when we see them as the same thing.
I'm going to play with this some more, thanks so much for showing it to me!
RustyJuggling - - Parent #
After a little playing, I think I have a modification that helps axiom notation's descriptive power a bit, for my purposes anyway. If you use one letter and its position in the pattern, it really opens up the notation. For example SS(abc) becomes SS(y1 y2 y3). This might mess a bit with the capital letter part of the notation? Not sure at the moment. I've been subscripting the numbers in my notes, which is cleaner than on computer, where I'll put the numbers in //.
Using this, the axiom that any two throws can be swapped is thus:
SS(...y/a/...y/b/...)- SS(...y/b/+(b-a)...y/a/-(b-a)...)
with 'a' being a digit in the pattern before digit 'b'. So basically this allows for the pattern to have any period, and indicates any two throws, with any distance between each other, being switched. In destination/orbit format the axiom is:
DO(...y/a/...y/b/...)- DO(...y/b/...y/a/...)
If you use some janky notation I think I have the axiom that describes converting a negative throw into a multiplex throw (assuming that the negative throw is formatted as the last throw). An apostrophe after a throw indicates its "absolute value," that is, the throw with the period of the pattern subtracted as many times as possible without entering negatives. A throw being negative is indicated in the axiom, because it relies on the presence of a negative throw. Using this, the axiom is:
DO(...y/b-(y/b/')/...-y/b/)- DO(...[y/b-(y/b/')/P]...[y/b/ y/b/])
with P representing the period of the pattern, orbiting 0 times. In the future the number of orbits might be included within the axiom? I don't know how often such a thing would be needed so it's hard to say.
Also, for convenience, "y/b-(y/b/')/" just represents the destination of the negative throw. I realize that it looks a bit revolting. There might be a better symbol to use than // for writing these on computer? I don't know.
Anyways, those are my ideas on a modified axiom notation.
I think you could put patterns into a kind of path/orbit notation to make that transformation really easy to visualize. Like 441, notated as (destination in the pattern)/(# of orbits) would be (IE; 423) with no addition or subtraction needed. So I guess to put that into terms of an axiom you could use a different prefix, like if we call that notation D/O, axiom 2 might look like
A2: DO(abc)- DO(acb)
So nifty!
I have a whole mess of remarks about this:
3•) - - {{ I think, by 'orbit', here, you mean 'period', ( or 'length of the siteswap' )? ... as 'orbit' usually refers to the path that the single balls take through the pattern }}
#1) - - How does swapping 2/1 3/1 1/0 to 2/1 1/0 3/1, 'visualise' any throws to be done or the sequence of throws to relative heights?
n#) - - in order to use this simplification, you have to convert 441 to 2/1, 3/1, 1/0, and reconvert back when swapped, soas to know your digits to be juggled - all in all that seems more complicated, a detour. (?)
•√) - - the little adding and subtracting that you need when juggling and playing with altering siteswaps is usually trivial enough to be done in mind. So ... as elegant as it is - where's the benefit of it all, of D/0?Unrelated to that, you could also construct a multiplex-making axiom like:
A(m): SS(A), SS(B)- SS([AB])
where A and B have the same period.
This, it seems, is a pure notation issue, isn't it? Let's see ... in siteswap notation
3 and
1
become [31],
333 and
423
become [34][32][33], ...
hm, yeah, why not.I think there might also be an axiom for converting negative throws into multiplexes? Testing 55-1 and 44-2 to 5[51][22] and [42]4[11] with D/O shows a pretty nice pattern but [...]
I had been thinking about this too - you can relate negative digits to the next period of the siteswap repeated, for example [please ignore the spaces as a go around autogreen for stickman!]:
5 5 -1, where that throw can't land anymore (backwards in time)
should and can simply land
5 5 -1 5 5 -1 ...
thus 2 beats ahead in time
5 5 +2 !
Switching
0 1 2 3 4
to
2 -1 2 3 4 ... would actually then land on the first digit, 4 beats later. Making it...
2 4 2 3 4
q.e.d. ( well no lol - it's no proof, just one example where I hope it works ((didn't check yet)) )
Ladder diagrams are also most helpful to see, visualize swaps, and many other solutions for siteswaps quested for.[...] a modification that helps axiom notation's descriptive power a bit, for my purposes anyway.
As not a mathematician, I see your generalized axiom notion - to which behalf, I see only nebula. Would it for example make writing software easier or more generally applicable to also other notations than siteswap, maybe dance steps or sth or knitting?If you use one letter and its position in the pattern, it really opens up the notation. For example SS(abc) becomes SS(y1 y2 y3).
Aoutch! ... now I'm out ( I might look through this, lotsa spare time given, but my needs for calculating with siteswaps are mostly if not fully covered by what there already is notations ).
But I have a slight impression that what you're finding out there might overlap with Beever's full original publication, http://www.jugglingedge.com/pdf/BenBeeversGuidetoJugglingPatterns.pdf [ section 8. ]SS(...y/a/...y/b/...)- SS(...y/b/+(b-a)...y/a/-(b-a)...)
[...] allows for the pattern to have any period, and indicates any two throws, with any distance between each other, being switched.
Yes, I think this is implied in the axioms.In destination/orbit format the axiom is:
DO(...y/a/...y/b/...)- DO(...y/b/...y/a/...)
A simplification then, one level higher or more abstract or more basic. (?) Just, I do still wonder how to make use of it..[...] janky notation [...] apostrophe after a throw indicates its "absolute value," that is, the throw with the period of the pattern subtracted as many times as possible without entering negatives. A throw being negative is indicated in the axiom, because it relies on the presence of a negative throw. [...]
[...] "y/b-(y/b/')/" just represents the destination of the negative throw. [...] revolting. [...]
°Ouffh° ... you knocked me out X-D
RustyJuggling - - Parent #
So nifty!
I have a whole mess of remarks about this:
3•) - - {{ I think, by 'orbit', here, you mean 'period', ( or 'length of the siteswap' )? ... as 'orbit' usually refers to the path that the single balls take through the pattern }}
#1) - - How does swapping 2/1 3/1 1/0 to 2/1 1/0 3/1, 'visualise' any throws to be done or the sequence of throws to relative heights?
n#) - - in order to use this simplification, you have to convert 441 to 2/1, 3/1, 1/0, and reconvert back when swapped, soas to know your digits to be juggled - all in all that seems more complicated, a detour. (?)
•√) - - the little adding and subtracting that you need when juggling and playing with altering siteswaps is usually trivial enough to be done in mind. So ... as elegant as it is - where's the benefit of it all, of D/0?
1. Yeah I've been pretty isolated thinking about juggling so my terminology can be a little off sometimes. That's what I mean, is the number of extra periods it has had added to it, from the lowest positive number.
2. I suppose the I would use D/O (Or D/something else I guess) as a different way of seeing the same siteswaps. Like as a way to look at two patterns and see certain relationships more clearly. (Sidenote, with two seconds of looking through the HTML I can subscript things now.)
So like in the example I might not be able to look at 441 and 423 and say 'yeah the last two are switched but in D/(?) it's fairly clear: 21 31 10 to 21 10 31.
So I guess it's like a way of looking at different properties of the pattern. Not useful for juggling a pattern but more so for studying relationships between destination and added periods. Or maybe for finding/writing axioms, which I think tend to be cleaner using it, but honestly I'm not sure yet, we'll see.5 5 -1, where that throw can't land anymore (backwards in time)
should and can simply land
5 5 -1 5 5 -1 ...
thus 2 beats ahead in time
5 5 +2 !
Switching
0 1 2 3 4
to
2 -1 2 3 4 ... would actually then land on the first digit, 4 beats later. Making it...
2 4 2 3 4
That's really interesting, I hadn't considered that kind of transformation. It's like adding the period to a normal throw- which would be where that extra ball comes from. Ladder diagrams are also most helpful to see, visualize swaps, and many other solutions for siteswaps quested for.
Super helpful, ladder diagrams have helped me a bunch with conceptualizing negative siteswaps. Useful for sync transformations too.Yes, I think this is implied in the axioms.
Yeah, looking back to the axiom notation page it's actually way more clearly defined than I thought. I missed the part where A could be empty and I thought "well what if I want to do things with the first number?" So ellipsis in the modified axioms are basically the same as capital letters in the original, meaning that the D/? switching axiom could just be:
D/?(AbCdE)- D/?(AdCbE)
Which is exactly the same as how it was originally written, just with addition/subtraction omitted.
So partially the modified notation is just me being silly and not reading well enough, but I do think it's better-suited for describing the specifics of where in the pattern a transformation occurs. Like the negative-converting axiom relies on where specifically a throw occurs in the pattern, which is why I couldn't fit it into the original system.
Also I think there might have been something off with my earlier negative-multiplex axiom, so here's a revised version, in D/? because it's way cleaner than writing it in siteswap. Doesn't require that janky apostrophe. Note, I'm going to use y/z instead of just y to mess with parts of the throw separately.
D/?(...(y/z)a...-(y/z)b)- D/?(...[(y/z)a P/(zb)]...[(y/z)b(y/z)b])
With P being the period of the pattern.
I also added parenthesis to distinguish when a subscript refers to the whole thing and when it only refers to the number of periods added.
Which also needs a name, so I can stop using D/?. Magnitude? Loops? I don't know. Something shorter than "the number of times that the throw has had the period of the pattern added to it".
So like in the example I might not be able to look at 441 and 423 and say 'yeah the last two are switched but in D/(?) it's fairly clear: 21 31 10 to 21 10 31.
Oh! That's very cool.[...] it's [D/O notation] better-suited for describing the specifics of where in the pattern a transformation occurs.
Yes, now I see it too, while earlier didn't, that a relation between 441 and 423 is not exactly apparent, but D/O nudges your nose right on it.
All in all I find it great, that your D/O notation and this way to look at siteswaps is possible, that it exists - an enrichment.
Thanks for presenting & sharing it here on The Edge!
RustyJuggling - - Parent #
All in all I find it great, that your D/O notation and this way to look at siteswaps is possible, that it exists - an enrichment.
Thanks for presenting & sharing it here on The Edge!
Thanks, I really appreciate that! And thanks so much for introducing axiom notation to me, it's really interesting and the knowledge is invaluable. 'Loop' sounds good to me, D/L then
Yeah, 'loop' is what I would use.
And as a last note mainly for myself, the revised siteswap version of that pesky negative axiom, because the other one isn't as good and I don't want it to be the final version:
SS(...ya...-yb)- SS(...[ya yb]...[(P-yb')(P-yb')])
Where a=b-yb' and P=period
Which also needs a name, so I can stop using D/?. Magnitude? Loops? I don't know. Something shorter than "the number of times that the throw has had the period of the pattern added to it".
Well, it's your work, your research, so you can call it anything you like in the first place - the more that you must very much have gotten used to thinking it as 'D/O' ...
( ...but I really think 'Orbits' is misleading, but I wouldn't have a problem calling it that ).
What's wrong with calling it 'D/P' for 'Period'?
There's anyway a little mess about
period - length of the ss
. . . ( misconceivable in itself again also seen that e.g. 3 = 333 ),
round - mostly used synonym to 'period' I think, but depending on the context, ( e.g. 'round(s) of the siteswap' ),
cycle - also ( and I find wrongly ) used for 'period \ round', as more precisely used for 'until all balls ( especially of different colors, or else also of mixed props ) are back where they started off', which can be many roun... errh periods.
'Loop' sounds good to me, D/L then, while I don't at all feel entitled to give statements (just "thoughts") on such realm's namings, as many others have worked on this a lot more before.
I love the level of juggle-nerdism on display here. I understand very close to none of it but I bet Ben would have loved it (and understood/had comments) too. Bravo.
When throwing to different heights with props passing one another by,
you can exchange two of a series of throws to land at the moment where the other did.
Just, for both then also being thrown at the moment, the other got thrown ( one then earlier, one later ), their flight-time needs prolonged \ reduced by that difference ( often simply = 1 )
'Swapping digits' of a siteswap, that is.
This is good for playing with altering patterns or intendedly changing them for a purpose e.g. as exercise, and I presume, also for coordinating numbers of passers into a given pattern.
;-D
The truth about Vertax.
...can finally be revealed in this thread (click!):
https://mastodon.social/@docpop/113234213120973371
...which then veers off into loop diabolo and yo-yo talk. (Check out Doc Pop's Loop vid while you're there.) Which also makes me wonder when I first saw loop diabolo. I'm fairly sure someone was doing it in London in the mid-90s. I suspect Sam, who I shall now email. I wonder if there are any clips of it in any old Alan Plotkin videos. I'd probably have to watch them to find out though, and that's going to take a lot of time. :-) (Plus, I think he took down the all his full convention videos 'cos of music rights.)
(Meanwhile, since it was a t-shirt post that started this all off...)
--
dot sig says Free P&P from 3-8th October!
https://tlmb.net/tees/
IT WAS YOU?!!
Well done, some people briefly called it Excalibur which was clearly a rubbish name. Glad vertax stuck!
Little Paul - - Parent #
“Excalibur? That’s not even a good name for a sword”
Upon first trying to remember loop diabolo, an image of Sam (Veale, btw) sprang to mind, but also the possibility that Donald Grant or Bruce had showed me something, perhaps in early '94, but that memory was hazier. I've now asked Sam, and he says he indeed played with loop diabolo, but credits it to Donald. And, on looking into his books, I find in 1996's Totally Diabolical, the description of what he called Diaboloop.
Sam also cites Venus as doing the first vertax he saw - (which also jogs my memory: deliberate tilting of the #diabolo, in order to go into...) the gyro grind.
I do recall correcting someone who said "horizontal diabolo" with "it's called Vertax", and then thinking "am I going to get away with this? Yeah, I think I just did...". Thankfully, it needed no intervention from me for the analagous backronym of "horax" that someone came up with to die a quick death. (Seuss meets Rowling?)
I miss DCA. The gang there would've enjoyed this. So it goes...
Yours ipsedixitistically,
Void
--
dot sig says Free P&P from 3-8th October!
https://tlmb.net/tees/
Apparently I was doing two in and on a loop in late ‘95, and I think Dave Proctor was, as with everything else, a big influence. I would guess that one diabolo loop stuff would predate that by well more than a couple of years.
.sig is on a train. Just passed through Obdam. Still can’t avoid reading that as ‘Obligatory dam’.
I like how it all developed. Thanks for starting with the term vertax!
IIRC the french used to call a vertax genocide excalibur, because you were cutting the air with the diabolo sticks and string like a sword.
Marko Akkanen did a video about how to move with your diabolo in vertax: https://youtu.be/Pox_ksO53fk
I came late to the scene in 2009. Were Tr'espace and Ryo Yabe inspirational for your t-shirt design?
I liked how your T-Shirts "Vertax is rubbish" influenced Alexis Levillon to post a video called "Vertax is not rubbish": https://youtu.be/l72lbLbcXyM. Later he even did 3 diabolos in vertax: https://youtu.be/jgtvYG8nRVY
Alexis invented then the combination of vertax and horizontal with https://youtu.be/3xBNIgN7ouk. The diabolo.ca community coined the term galaxy to attribute the trick to Alexis.
Nowadays vertax has become very popular in the scene, especially in Asia.
Is there more historical information online about vertax diabolo?
As a reference source, DCA is alive and well (but not thriving) in the archive. So to answer your question, no, this thread is what inspired the t-shirt:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230329184450/https://diabolo.ca/forum/index.php?topic=3153.0
So, there’s probably a lot more info about vertax in there, you care to trawl through it. There’s also a site called something like “the museum of diabolo history”. Or was, at least. I’ll see if I can find the link for you…
I just needed to remember that it was French:
https://www.museediabolo.fr/
Yes I know that site and there is a museum in China as well. I was thinking about the newer developments in the past 30 years. I guess your link to the internet archive for dca is the best information we have. Thanks!
Here are all the links posted during September 2024:
The following hashtags were used:
Hi everyone.
Im Mike. Ive been juggling, and spinning props for about 20 years and recently pushed into juggling more and working towards 5 ball, 4 clubs as well as 3 poi and 4 poi juggling.
If you are ever in Kentucky swing by Louisville Flow Jam on Wednesday nights .
I will be at IJA in Evansville next year and possibly Flame, Kinetic and More.
Hi Mike,
Welcome aboard. Have fun at those fests!
[Something I'm going to start saying to all newbies here..] This site doesn't have push notifications, but if you go to https://jugglingedge.com/user.php , you can scroll down and select "Email me when someone replies to one of my posts", which is the nearest thing.
Good idea! I've just added a first post page which highlights & gives you the opportunity to immediately change this option.
Nice one. #NewFeature
Hello Mike, welcome aboard!
How long have you been going to Louisville Flow Jam? What does a typical session look like?
Hi all - just a reminder that #Camvention2024 only 2 weeks away! We're in the same great venue, there will be aerial, there will be workshops and games, Oddballs are coming, Sam's Thai van is back - what's not to love? Hope to see you all there :)
Hello,
Finally got around to joining on here. Currently trying to learn flourishes and a few more club tricks.
I run the Circus Society at the University of Kent, so if there's anyone in the south east of England looking for a place to juggle, we'll be meeting Tuesday evenings in Eliot Hall on the Cantebrury campus, feel free to stop by!
#UKCCircus
Hi Morton,
Welcome. I remember learning flourishes. I could do them with left and right hands okay, but learning to flourish every one in a cascade was really annoying! :-) Good luck.
[Something I'm going to start saying to all newbies here..] This site doesn't have push notifications, but if you go to https://jugglingedge.com/user.php , you can scroll down and select "Email me when someone replies to one of my posts", which is the nearest thing.
Cheers!
Subscribe to this forum via RSS
1 article per branch
1 article per post