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Daan -

Hi guys!
I'm Daan. I'm 19 years old and from the Netherlands. My friend Chris is a really good juggler and got me into juggling. I just started a few days ago so I'm a noob but I enjoy it!!!! :D
Bye

The Void - - Parent

Welcome to juggling, and to The Edge!

Guili -

I did it! I did it! I did it! I did it! I did it! I FUCKING DID IT!!!
I'm oficially a 7b qualifying juggler! :D
made a 15-catch run!
must confess I've shed a tear.. it's now 6 months working for this, so.. happy, yeah!
Wanna thank to the edge and everybody who gave me advice and encourage, it was paramount in this endeavour.

so, next goal? 100 catches with 7b?
anyway, I'm so happy, I don't care.. haha!

The Void - - Parent

*applause* Well done!

7b_wizard - - Parent

Haha :-D °big smile° great, wonderful!

Terix - - Parent

Congrats!!!!)))

Guili - - Parent

thanks guys! those were 6 months of hard work, but totally worth it!

bad1dobby -

Salerno ring plus...

A trick I've not seen before - an antipodism version of the Salerno ring, but with an added twist...
https://youtu.be/iOz8RNpofZc?start=2466

trick is at 41m6s, full act starts around 39:15

(Q: what do you do when one antipodist just isn't enough? A: you get eight of them, in sync!)

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Nice find!

Rosie -

CATCH! update

its the last night tonight to buy a ticket on the website, here is the link: https://catchfestival2018.co.uk/tickets

After tonight you will have to wait and buy tickets on the door. And that means..they're expensive! *screams in terror*

So if you still haven't got a ticket you really should get one tonight!

#catch2018

Anthony Trahair -

Hello!!! This is my first post here so thanks for reading!!!
-Anthony

This coming year I'm organising a fluidjuggling workshop tour in Europe!

Anthony Trahair - - Parent

It seems to have trunked my message

7b_wizard - - Parent

Hi Anthony!

Fluidjuggling sounds very interesting. Is that really, you're pouring fluids in motion, long distance pouring while turning, dancing, and blindfold and such? Can you juggle egg-yolks? ;o}=

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Nice to see you here Anthony :)

DavidCain -

So who on here, besides myself, is going to the CATCH Festival later this month?

lukeburrage - - Parent

Yup

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Yep.

Scroll down at https://jugglingedge.com/event.php?EventID=4593 for some more

The Void - - Parent

#catch2018, you mean? Why yes, I'll be there.

Tom Derrick - - Parent

I'll be there from Tuesday evening. Sadly I couldn't get the time off work for the whole event.

Little Paul - - Parent

Yup! although we didn’t realise there was stuff happening in the evening on the Friday when we booked accommodation and cat sitting - so we’ll be leaving before the end :(

Looking forward to finally meeting you after all these years, and hopefully finding out what ball spinning is like with your cheating-saggy-balloon-things-that-aren’t-really-balls :P

Topper - - Parent

I'm going.
LP Will you be taking your golf clubs?

Little Paul - - Parent

It seems likely, I’ve not really had a go with them for ages though!

DavidCain - - Parent

I have new info on the origins of the golf club trick.

Topper - - Parent

That would be interesting.
I will have mine and i'm sure Tiff will have his.

Little Paul - - Parent

Does anyone know if Charlie Holland is coming, or if he could be persuaded to bring the golf clubs that he's got?

I don't appear to have any contact info for him any more so can't ask him directly :(

The Void - - Parent

I've pointed him at your post.

The Void - - Parent

Rumour has it that a) He's forgotten his Edge password, b) He'll be at Catch, and c) so will RM's clubs.

Little Paul - - Parent

Doh! Hurrah! And extra hurrah! :)

Rosie - - Parent

Im going!

Glad to see so many golf club balancers are going... :D

Regarding Friday evening: there is entertainment, a circus film will be shown, there will be food too. Also during the day food stalls and local vendors will be out in force. It will be in Appleby itself instead of up on the convention site, I didnt really organise it, I just suggested they do something, told them what film, and why and how, and then they are running it, which is why at first i never said anything was happening on the friday incase it didnt come off.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing you all there!

Terix -

What do you think, where is the border between juggler-amateur and juggler professional?
I think it depends on every person whether they consider themselves amateurs or professionals, but I am interested what do you think it means to be pro - to juggle or dance with fire? To juggle solidly 7 balls? To break a world record? To win competition at WJF? To know a lot of juggling tricks and can do creative shows? Does it mean, if you are pro, that balls will never fall in your show?

Little Paul - - Parent

The border is quite simple.

Do you make the majority of your income from juggling?

Yes - you’re a professional juggler
No - you’re an amateur juggler

7b_wizard - - Parent

For sure. And maybe being able to arrange your life around your juggling income, supporting a family, a household, a car, insurances (in case of injury or sickness) an' all, some spare budget; and that means also when things are workin' out against you (in life or as a juggler) at times. You would mostly depend on your juggling.

7b_wizard - - Parent

  For me, I guess, it would mean to do dropless. To entertain people well.

  There's so many occasions and setups for where and when to juggle for money, in pedestrian zones, at traffic lights, at festivals, on markets, at events of any kind, for tourists on ships, at hotels, on beaches, give workshops for jugglers and non-jugglers, at camps, teach in a circus school, have gigs at a varieté, in events-bars, discos, therapeutic teaching juggling for rehabilitation or for mental support or as part of an ergotherapy, have an own studio, be a wandering mobile jester, is what I can think of ad hoc.
  So there's many decisions to take and many things to find out where and when it would work best also long-term like where do people's wallets sit loose, what do people expect and want from a juggler, how can you make what you have to offer an ``event´´, sth they won't easily forget and worthwhile for people to pay for.

  And all this is not yet speaking of skills being utterly ripe for stage, not speaking of mastership versus "got it once per stint" and doing on highest and secure level enabling you to entertain while juggling.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I've become a professional juggler by caring less about juggling and more about performing whenever I'm on stage.

Are you just a good juggler? Amateur.
Are you a good juggler, good performer, have knowhow about costumes, music, dancing, devising shows, collaborating, creative writing, promoting yourself and getting paid for your juggling? Probably a professional.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Pah, I've seen loads of examples of bad jugglers and good performers (who perform juggling). Or, at least, they do no good juggling in their show. Let's not overidolize the pros.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I used to think that loads of performers were bad jugglers, but the longer I am in this business the more I realize most performers choose to not do great juggling even if they can.. Including myself, on stage I show at most a third of my skill level...

Mike Moore - - Parent

I've been disappointed way too many times. There are tons of buskers, as well as cushy-job pros that I wouldn't describe as "good jugglers" even if their act contained only 10 % of their skill level. It's fine, I get it, juggling isn't their profession as much as performing is.

There are tons of (juggling-mainly) buskers in Ontario that are pretty bad jugglers. Even at the Toronto Buskerfest, where there are many international performers, the juggling tends to be pretty lackluster.

I also recall Luke Burrage (I think? In one of the really old podcasts) complaining about buskers who only do 3 object cascades with different things. I don't think the trend is unique to North America.

All of that said...when I went to a Japanese busking festival, there were JJF/IJA winners/placers as far as the eye could see.

Terix - - Parent

These "bad buskers" probably have their own reasons why do they juggle in public even if they can't do it on a high level. In Czech Republic where I live there is a lot of buskers but I have never seen a juggler among them, only musicians and others.

Mike Moore - - Parent

Oh, it can be very effective at getting money in a hat. Which is why I wouldn't describe them as bad buskers, but would describe them as bad jugglers.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

There is a point where I would not consider these performers "jugglers", perhaps entertainers or buskers. I wonder how they see themselves, but I doubt that someone who sticks to the three cascade with different objects see themselves as jugglers in the first place... I hope not :p

Mike Moore - - Parent

They've certainly advertised themselves as such :(

lukeburrage - - Parent

I don't remember the exact podcast, but I think my opinions have evolved a bit. I don't mind buskers who only do three object cascades with different things. Now I have strong thoughts about american-style comedy jugglers whose performances are based around telling dad jokes while juggling three object cascades, and never have anything funny going on *except* the dad jokes and maybe the intrinsic hilarity of the weird objects being juggled. If the comedy isn't somehow connected to the physicality of juggling or the performance of juggling, and just what someone says or holds, I personally find it very hard to enjoy or appreciate. Conversations with this type of juggling never seems to be about juggling, only about joke writing, but I have zero interest in conversations about writing jokes, and if I did have interest in writing jokes, I'd being hanging out with standup comedians, not jugglers.

Mike Moore - - Parent

It was one of my favourite episodes...I think you also talked about one particular busker who would gather a crowd, then demand prepayment, then cancel the show because he didn't receive enough money. Rinse and repeat.

Because of this thread I was trying to figure out whether I'd consider this person to be a bad busker. Since I've had mostly bad experiences with buskers (in the wild), I see a busker's priority as making money, leaning my answer toward, "No, he accomplishes his goal as a busker". But I don't know how prevalent that attitude/prioritization is, and if it varies depending on the type of skill performed (juggling, balancing, beatboxing, etc.)

Little Paul - - Parent

He sounds more hustler than busker to me.

Terix - - Parent

Why don't you show your best?

mike.armstrong - - Parent

Daniel can give his own answer - but I saw him perform at BJC and I think he did give his best.

He gives his best performance, which isn't the same as his hardest juggling tricks.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Mike is correct! I want to make the best performance, and that doesn't work if I have to concentrate on the juggling. This seems to be the same for the high end technical jugglers too... Anthony Gatto did tricks in training way beyond what he did on stage.
Sergei Ignatov's warm up included doing his whole 5 ring stage sequence with 7 rings...

The people who perform at the top of their juggling skill level are often regarded as bad performers, at least by me. On a convention open stage this can be fun, but they fail in show business.... I don't want to call out names, but often I've seen videos of acts that really impressed me, but when I saw them live they were either droppy or really didn't know how to deal with the stage...

Even in youth circus this is a thing. As a kid I always wanted to show off my best moves of course, but recently I've seen some acts from youngsters who chose to keep it simple, and that has made their work so much more interesting to watch! :)

Little Paul - - Parent

I think of it as risk management.

The absolute hardest stuff you can do, is inherently risky. You can't hit it every time [1]. If you put that in the show, it'll be droppy and that makes audiences feel uncomfortable.

Training well above the level of what's in your show makes the stuff that *is* in your show more reliable, less risky, less droppy.

Reducing that risk leaves space in your show for the other performance aspects that are required to give the audience a pleasing experience.

For most performers, a happy audience leads to more work (And that's as true on the street as it is on cruise ships as it is on a variety stage or circus ring) - which is important if performing is how you pay for your rent/food.

I've heard several people claim that in some environments (eg cruise ships) some bookers will not rebook you if you drop. So putting your top 10% hardest tricks in the show is a poor business decision.

After all, as they say - "Show Business" is at least as much Business as it is Show.

-Paul
[1] Or "reliably hit it on the third time" which is the traditional "circus" trope for hard stuff

JonPeat - - Parent

I went to a workshop with Donald Grant once.

He said something along the lines of: 'If you fill your routine with tricks which you can hit 90% of the time, then your routine as a whole will be 90% drop free'.

The wording may well have been different but the message is very clear.
If you are happy with a few more drops in the routine as a whole then you could include some more risky tricks. If you want a dropless performance, then tone it down.

As LP says, its all about risk management.

Cheers Jon
(I love that quote from Donald so I bang it out every chance I get!)

lukeburrage - - Parent

I was a guest at the Russian Juggling Convention last weekend, and one of my duties was to judge the IJA Regional Competition. There are six factors that are rated out of 10:

Entertainment Factor
Difficulty of Juggling
Execution of Juggling
Creativity of Juggling
Non-juggling Performance Aspects
Representative of Juggling

The two acts that I rated the highest, and who went on to win the top two prizes, were both so obviously the most professional, and it wasn't due to the non-juggling performance aspects. The thing that made me think they were the most professional was the difficulty level of tricks they chose and how well they executed them. Once an audience member can relax, knowing the performer is in control, it allows them to enjoy the act as a whole. Drops get in the way of the flow of the act and interrupt any character work.

Also there were a number of acts who never landed their final trick. Some didn't get it due to failing once, then running out of time or music (which has lots of easy solutions). Others tried a few times, and failed every time, and then gave up (which also has easy solutions: pick an easier trick or practice more). But in all cases, it destroyed the entertainment factor scores AND the performance scores along with the difficulty and execution scores. Nothing is more annoying than bringing me close to the climax and then stopping before we arrive!

I'm glad it isn't true that cruise ships won't book you again if you drop, in my experience, because my show is about failure and overcoming failure, and I drop plenty in my show. But what I ALWAYS do is nail the final trick, on cue, to the music, even if it means replaying the final 20 seconds of the music again to do so (which I actually do on purpose to build tension).

I'm with Daniel when it comes to being disappointed by big name jugglers who look impressive in videos but then drop too much. Pavel Evsukevich is probably the most disappointing, having seen him perform twice live now, and never seeing him land his final trick, despite a total of maybe six or seven attempts. One performance was at a juggling convention, so whatever, but the other was at a ticketed public event, not for jugglers, and he didn't get close to convincing me he was in control at the end of his act. It's a real pity, because I'd love to see someone do 9 rings with a head bounce!

Daniel Simu - - Parent

I saw that same ticketed public event on another date and had the same bad experience, he was definitely on my mind when I wrote my post....

Kelhoon - - Parent

I am neither pro nor amateur. I classify myself as a hobbyist, I do it for fun, not money.

peterbone - - Parent

Isn't that exactly what amateur means?

Kelhoon - - Parent

I haven't checked the dictionary, but in my head (and maybe only in my head) I feel like there is a difference somehow.

Like, if it was golf, a golf amateur would enter local tournaments, but a golf hobbyist wouldn't. Not that there are juggling tournaments as such. An amateur might aspire to be a professional, a hobbyist wouldn't.

I'm not sure how to verbalise it, but there is a difference to me, a difference in attitude or approach or something.

The Void - - Parent

Peter's right in terms of the derivation of the word. You're right in real-world examples. LP's right in his answer to the original question.
All right!

Little Paul - - Parent

I think the original poster might have meant something slightly different to what I answered though.

I think the intent might have been “what do I need to be able to do to call myself a professional” - which is subtly different.

Then again, there’s also “what does professionalism look like?” - which in my mind is different again, and the gold standard answer to that one is Luke Wilson in my book.

Terix - - Parent

I am interested in all answers, but you are right, I was thinking a lot what it is - professionalism. Because some people who call themselves pro are bad jugglers and some very good jugglers don't call themselves in any way.
Also when a person is amateur and tends to be a professional, there is time when they tell themselves: Now I am pro, not more amateur. Or they ask themselves what to do to be a professional. I'm interested in these reasons and answers and I am happy for all answers here)

DavidCain - - Parent

Yeah, to be technical, if you make money from juggling, you're a professional. If you don't, you're an amateur / hobbyist. It's that simple.

Simeon -

I haven't been putting my 7ball records for a long time so after I did that run of 63 catches, I went on to do 84 catches at the first gandini workshop that took place in Manchester. it wasn't until 3days ago that I hit 100 catches of 7 balls and my goal was to hit 100 catches by 2019 christmas and I actually hit it at 28 of June 2018. Then yesterday I broke 2 personal records for 7 balls the first one was 112 and the second one was 126. Had lots of time to juggle the last few days as I have been lucky enough not to have an homework from school to do.
Have a great day everyone.

The Void - - Parent

Nicely done, congrats!

Simeon - - Parent

Thanks very much. How many catches can you do with 7 balls or however many you can juggle and what's your high score for example it could be 20 catches with 5 balls or 100000 catches with 100 lol

The Void - - Parent

I gave up on 7 balls over 14 years ago. My best was 36 or 38, I can't remember exactly. I tried again in May for a laugh, and managed 8 catches several times.
6 balls - don't know, probably less than 100.
5 balls - don't know, pretty sure I did >500, 20+ years ago.
I don't really go in for endurance these days.

Simeon - - Parent

Oh I see. I wished you hadn't given up on 7 balls, wish you lots of happy juggling to come. Great talking to you.

7b_wizard - - Parent

strong!

Simeon - - Parent

Thanks

holyguyver -

Could anyone possibly tell me where I could buy, or exactly how I could make, a spinning carpet? My juggling group has an antipodist who would like to learn how to spin carpets with her feet.

Daniel Simu - - Parent

Thick heavy cloth in your preferred shape (circle, square, star). For feet you can go quite big, maybe 80cm to a meter diameter?
Sew a weighted chain in the edge, like the one you use for curtains.

It's possible to sew a ring of thick rolled up fabric in the middle (20cm diameter) which makes spinning easier, your feet would stick in the ring.

I'm not an expert, but friends of mine are and I've watched them closely....

Good luck!

holyguyver - - Parent

Thank you for your wonderful advise.

Rosie - - Parent

we made one out of an old towel

Orinoco -

Old school Flyer for the 1st Covent Garden Juggling Convention

https://jugglingedge.com/userfiles/Topper/1986CoventGardenJugglingConvention.jpg

Image acquired via Topper, via Stuart Ashman.

Cedric Lackpot - - Parent

That's spiffy Orinoco, nice find. I have a vague feeling I went to the second one, or something very similar.

Little Paul - - Parent

It sort of feels a bit like people used to put more effort into their flyers back then.

Orinoco - - Parent

It's also interesting how little information was conveyed. These days so many people want to know the schedule detailed down to the last minute, the name & biography of every performer, the full menu available etc. I do like the 'turn up, see what you find' vibe. When I first started going to BJCs all the information I had was a couple of paragraphs detailing the essentials in The Catch. I miss that.

Topper - - Parent

My first juggling convention.

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