Mike Moore - #
High-Low-Around Inverted Box
I'm finally making some progress with my most difficult pattern:
https://youtu.be/Lh3ifpX3YaI
Sometimes people doubt me when I say the 3b stuff I do is more fatiguing for me than 5-7b (I'm quite a bit better at 3b!). This is now my best example of a very physically stressful 3b pattern.
Because I like thinking about these things: it went about 7.4 catches/second and the 2xs in the (6,2x) were thrown at about ~29 km/hour (~8 m/s) (3 frames at 60 fps to cross my body). As it cleans up, the catches/time should increase.
Sorry for those who have already seen this through other media...I try not to excessively cross-post my stuff. I really liked this one, though!
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
That is pretty crazy Mike. I had to slow it right down to see what you were doing!
Mike Moore - - Parent #
You can high-low a shower, so you can high low a box.
You can high-low a box, so you can high-low an inverted box.
You can throw throw the (2x,2x) underneath the "high" throw, so you can throw one 2x above and one 2x below the high throw. <--what I'm doing
That's the logic I used coming up with it (point 2 was helped along by loads of people in Japan being able to run high-low inverted box (#HLIB). The jump from 2 to 3 is really nasty.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
This is why my code never compiles. Throw a ) after the (#HLIB).
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Recently I've started to get some decent runs of the Double Inv Box but the standard High-Low-Inv-Box has always seemed too far out of my reach. Although it doesn't look as fast as your 'around' variation I'm not sure that my hands would be able to move that quickly! Also, as is so often the case, I can't see how to break the HLIB down to try to learn it. It might be a nice addition to the library of juggling! As would your HLAIB!!
Mike Moore - - Parent #
My learning process for HLIB went something like:
1 - See everyone and their pets doing HLIB in Japan.
2 - Practise it furiously upon returning home.
Practicing high-low box at different heights would help. Then, out of inverted box, try throwing one ball high and re-entering the pattern without any new throws. That last step is one of the best drills to take an inverted box that's good and turn it into an inverted box that's solid, and ready for variations. You'll probably be surprised how high you can throw a 4 out of an inverted box! Remember that the 4 doesn't have to be under the path of the 2x the whole time, just that the 2x must travel over the 4 during the 2x's path. I don't know if this is clear, but if you try it out you'll probably see what I mean.
After you can throw fairly high 4s, it's pretty easy to do a (2x,2x) underneath. Running it as a smooth pattern takes some doing.
noslowerdna - - Parent #
Good advice, the higher 6 definitely helps. I've been working on HLIB quite a bit recently (switched-column IB also but that's another bucket of turtles), and it's finally starting to materialize.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
For a long, long time I've been thinking about making a bunch of contributions to Library of Juggling. It strikes me as such a daunting task that I'm having trouble getting started.
My video box tutorials are underway, and they're going well. Once I have a couple dozen finished in advance, I'll start releasing them. Once that project's done, LoJ is probably next in line.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
I'll look forward to the box tutorials!
noslowerdna - - Parent #
Same here, they'll be a fantastic online learning resource.
noslowerdna - - Parent #
Contributing tutorials to the Library of Juggling isn't actually that painful - in my case I started by simply sending an email expressing my interest, and the site owner was very helpful with sorting out the details.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Oops, it wasn't me intention to imply making tutorials for it was painful, I meant that it was opening another project when I feel I already have too much on the go. When some come to a close, it's a project I'm interested in doing.
I like it! I used to do 6 throws-catches/second moving my hands up and down each side and keeping each ball at its level (always), using 3 different colors, the red would pass back and forth across the top, the green back and forth across the middle, and the yellow across the bottom.
I had a really nice "box" that I "moved" by walking sideways with it. This inspires me to pick up this stuff again after many years, maybe make some videos .....
[answering the thread:]
I'm going a step further now and call it historic .. or does anyone have a proposition of another box deserving to be rated "hardest box ever"?
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Do you mean (in front of you) 3b box patterns?
I suppose any box pattern can be made a difficult as you like by adding body throws/catches into it.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
This definitely isn't the hardest box pattern in theory. Have you seen some really tough body-thrown boxes done? A behind the head 2x is tricky, but I'm having trouble thinking of tough ones that I've seen done. Some day I'd like to see your nunchuck one come to fruition.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
I always thought this one looked tricky (5:05) :
https://youtu.be/4_nhAkHHF7s
But not tried it myself. I suppose I was just thinking that you could take any box variation and make it more difficult (if you wanted to) by changing the position (or making them more awkward). I would have thought InvBox would be very difficult if all throws were overheads for example.
Your HLAIB is most certainly pushing the boundaries of box patterns, I can't imagine it's possible to juggle quicker than that?
You mentioned Murakami - is he still juggling/creating? It's been a while since I've seen anything from him.
I tried a few "Ones" blind yesterday .. 't went surprisingly good .. and .. as you're mainly not reacting on what you see at that speed (but let your hands do the trained `algo´) .. maybe blind could be an easier way to upgrade any box? (but from speed-juggling's point of view only, not box-specialist's, which I know mainly only some theory of)
.. that looks very nice and pretty skilled (Sing, 4:50 and 5:05), but not so much "hardest ever" or "speedy" .. sure, i reckon, you linked it as examples to enhance boxes.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Yeah, that kind of 4 is tricky...I haven't put enough practise into it to really know how difficult it is. I have run the pattern at 5:05 a little bit, but with much higher 4s (thrown with arm, rather than wrist as is done in this video). It's a throw I've been meaning to practice for a while, and I'm surprised I haven't seen someone juggle 4 balls as 2 normal, two thrown as in this video.
Murakami has a job now (according to Ryuhan at IJA this year). I am pretty sure he is still juggling, he was still tearing it up last JJF. Dan Barron (who is fantastic at boxes) was very impressed. With the next one just around the corner, we'll have to watch for him in the compilation videos!
Just found out: the inv box can simply be thought of & written asynch as 3b-423 with wide horizontal tennis-3-s on top!?
With the asynch writing, 4b-633 can maybe be done as "around"-box for (very very) speedy box-jugglers doing low 6-es and wide 3-s below and on top ..
looks like that in JL:
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE jml SYSTEM "file://jml.dtd">
<jml version="1.2">
<pattern>
<title>336</title>
<prop type="ball"/>
<setup jugglers="1" paths="4" props="1,1,1,1"/>
<symmetry type="delay" pperm="(1)(2)(3)(4)" delay="1"/>
<symmetry type="switchdelay" jperm="(1,1*)" pperm="(1)(2)(3,4)"/>
<event x="54.8158" y="0" z="-13.7396" t="0" hand="1:right">
<throw path="1" type="toss"/>
</event>
<event x="15.3054" y="0" z="6.5331" t="0.0716" hand="1:right">
<catch path="3"/>
</event>
<event x="-61.1061" y="0" z="74.2759" t="0.1666" hand="1:left">
<throw path="2" type="toss"/>
</event>
<event x="-60.5074" y="0" z="-14.4062" t="0.2833" hand="1:left">
<catch path="1"/>
</event>
<event x="5" y="0" z="0" t="0.3783" hand="1:right">
<throw path="3" type="toss"/>
</event>
<event x="51.1691" y="-0" z="65.5372" t="0.45" hand="1:right">
<catch path="2"/>
</event>
</pattern>
</jml>
CORRECTION:
YOU said that before .. here: https://www.jugglingedge.com/forum.php?ThreadID=2223&SmallID=16044#Small16044 !
( looks like that found its way into my unconscious .. even though I wasn't yet thinking of doing any box then ((but already bewhelmed / bewhizzed by it by Chris Hodge's tutorial)) )
noslowerdna - - Parent #
That's a wicked-cool pattern. Will start working on it today!
I edited the animation a little: https://gfycat.com/IncredibleCapitalArcticduck
Thanks for making that give, I had no idea what to do with that jml.
The way stickman does that trick looks like its actually doable.
Although Chris hodge does a 633 variation at 2:00 in this video which makes me believe the proposed 633 variation should be really hard.
noslowerdna - - Parent #
Yes, extremely difficult... I doubt that I'll ever be able to do it.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
That is so cool. Thanks for making a gif out of it.
noslowerdna - - Parent #
I would love to see someone do this pattern - so, challenge accepted? :)
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Haha, I've bookmarked it. If I manage to get my Tricks of the Month patterns all sorted by the first week of October, I'll give it a crack. I think the theme I'll be going with is "four throw sites".
Ahh, a box and an inverted box at the same time...what a world we live in.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Hmmm...before I'm comfortable saying it's the hardest 3b box ever, I'd have to all of Murakami's relatively recent videos.
I can't think of any off-hand that are harder. A cross-2xed inverted box and an inverted box with the 2x behind the head are both tough variations I've seen done, but I don't think that either of them are in the same league as HLAIB.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
A crossed 2x inv box? So the horizontal ball is throw with the other hand?
Mike Moore - - Parent #
Yes, like a boxier version of this:
https://youtu.be/gNEHV6UmkSg?start=59
(59s in case the timestamp doesn't work)
I can kind of do it, and it's very frustrating for me to practise. It's in the finicky/clumsy stage for me right now, and it's hard to find motivation to practise it.
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
I see what you mean. I can't visualise a crossed INV Box with those lid throws. I'd hadn't thought of it before just then, it's blown a few fuses in my brain.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
For more blown fuses: crossing the 2x and crossing the columns is something I've never seen before. And then, why not start it as a normal inverted box, then move yourself to the other side of your pattern while keeping the pattern constant, resulting in doing a cross-columned and cross 2xed inverted box?
This is one of my dream patterns.
Brook Roberts - - Parent #
Are we talking about https://youtu.be/Xcf_EqWofMc?start=46 ? It sounds like what you are describing, but if so, I'm sure you're wrong - it might be fiddly and confusing to learn, but it's nowhere near as hard as tons of the stuff you can do! I can comfortably run that, and the amount of time it took for me was so much less than say, vertical box (or Inline 3 as apparantly it's called these days...).
I suspect you mean a different pattern, if not:
a) Gosh we learn differently!
b) You should put some more work into that box.
Incidently I've always called that box 'Mura box' (the one in the video) - don't know if there is a more usual name for it...?
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
That's a crossed Inv Box. The pattern Mike mentioned also has the 2x's thrown in reverse.
Brook Roberts - - Parent #
Um, can you re-explain? What does it mean to throw the 2x's in reverse?
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
The horizontal ball at the top -
L/H throws from the right side and it's caught on the left with the R/H
R/H throws from the left side and it's caught on the right with the L/H.
Brook Roberts - - Parent #
I'm a muppet - I totally though that was true in the Mura box, which I guess shows how much patterns become entirely muscle memory! Thanks for clarifying.
Well, I know what I should try next time I do something with 3 balls...I still think not crazily hard, but certainly harder, and I may well revise this opinion upon trying it :)
Actually, I already revise that a bit having thought about it, seems like the motions will be a lot less natural/flowing. I'm presuming I can just catch/throw the balls how I like, or is there 'One True Way'? Not immediately obvious what the easiest technique would be...
pumpkineater23 - - Parent #
Probably my fault - 'reverse' wasn't a very good way to describe it.. it seems 'backwards' in my mind. Well done for having a solid CIB. Mine is still a bit ropey. Interesting that you say the vertical box took you much longer to learn. I haven't even attempted that one yet but I seem to have been practicing the CIB for several years!
Brook Roberts - - Parent #
It's always hard to tell, especially if you learn them at very different times. I learnt vertical box a long time ago (gosh, like 7 years ago or something now, that makes me feel surprisingly old!), and presumably CIB sometime after that Mura video (since that's where I learnt it from), so I may have found it easier through being a better juggler.
Plus I'm better at confusing tricks over just hard tricks.
Plus I think vertical box is hard for longer runs (which I worked on lots), due to it being surprisingly tiring, unless you are very efficient, so that may have been a lot of the difficulty.
Mike Moore - - Parent #
You might've (have probably) noticed that there are two different cross-columned inverted boxes: one where the 4s are below, and much thinner than the length of the 2x, and one where the 4s act more as a border for the 2xs. I found the first one to be easier to learn, and the second one to be easier to run.
These are some other cross-columned variations I came up with a couple years ago, they can all be done with both versions:
https://youtu.be/yrHYa3t8BxQ
Mike Moore - - Parent #
I don't think enough people do the pattern yet for there to be a one true way. I've tried to throw the 2x in two different ways so far. With one hand about to throw a 2x (so cross-armed, with one hand raised):
1 - Kind of pulling the ball into a 2x with the same motion that moves my hand across my body. I think this one is more intuitive.
2 - Pointing my palm more toward me and making the throw with my middle/ring/pinky fingers and wrist. This masks the ball from the front for a moment, but I think it would lead to a much crisper 2x.
club length/style influence on spin rate
Hi All,
After seeing a video of a unicyclist juggling double spins and other moves, I was inspired to do more. After 3 weeks of hard work, I'm almost there and my body is no longer rebelling against this new challenge.
The excessive dropping has destroyed my 1970s Dube plain AB plastic American fat belly clubs, 20" long. I pulled out a set of 19" European-bellied clubs I bought from a now-unknown manufacturer in the 1970s. I think they have a dowel running the length.
These clubs spin MUCH faster than the 20" fat belly clubs. Is that because they are 1" shorter? Or because they are European?
I want to experiment with them because I might integrate doubles into my unicycling workout . If so, I also have to keep my eyes on the road for bumps. For a slow spinning club to double turn, it must go high. In order to watch that club going high, it's a challenge to also keep my eyes on the bumpy road.
Ultimately, I'm considering whether I need to buy a new set of clubs, what length and style.
Also, how much has club technology evolved in the last 40 years?
Thank you!
William
Little Paul - - Parent #
Spin speed is related to:
- the length of the club
- the weight distribution (if the weight is mostly central it'll spin faster, if it's towards one end it'll be more loopy)
- where along the length of the club you hold it
"how long is the handle" feeds into all of the above, with short handle clubs generally being faster.
I used to know a juggler who loved the fast spinning style so much he'd buy spotlight short handle clubs (what was that, purple spot?) and then saw another 1.5" off the handle. That gave his clubs a really fast, snappy spin.
The size of the body mostly affects the weight distribution (as there's more material nearer the end of the club), so fatter clubs are likely to be more floaty and skinny clubs more spinny - which is why albatross are so lovely for passing and fish are not so nice.
I'm not sure anyone specifically makes short-handle clubs any more (apart from possibly Renegade). so if you're starting fresh and want spinny - I would go for something skinny with a wrapped handle, and cut a couple of inches off.
You'll need a wrapped handle rather than a moulded handle (so that you can re-wrap it after shortening it)
For loads of information about how club technology has evolved over the last hundred years (including the last 40!) you could do an awful lot worse than working your way through https://historicaljugglingprops.com
Also the weight of the club - a long time ago when I switched from Spotlights to Henry's Pirouettes I overspun everything for a while just because the same amount of work from the wrist yielded a much stronger spin.
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
Henrys classic shorts are fine for fast spinning clubs, and I am curious to try mister babache Mario Berousek "flash" clubs!
I'll leave this here.
https://pjb.com.au/jug/moi/index.html
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
For a few seconds I wondered "which brand makes a club called Human Tibia?"
Little Paul - - Parent #
I'll let you make up your own distasteful joke about Chris' bone
Daniel Simu - - Parent #
bwahaha I am laughing out loud so hard now!
For a history on the development of the juggling clubs, read the five articles below. If you send me a photo of the clubs you're now using, I'd love to see what they are. I may be able to identify them.
David Cain
http://ezine.juggle.org/2014/01/31/the-development-of-the-juggling-club-part-1/
http://ezine.juggle.org/2014/02/16/the-development-of-the-juggling-club-part-2/
http://ezine.juggle.org/2014/02/24/the-development-of-the-juggling-club-part-3/
http://ezine.juggle.org/2014/03/10/the-development-of-the-juggling-club-part-4/
http://ezine.juggle.org/2014/03/26/the-development-of-the-juggling-club-part-5/
(I'll upload a photo if I can figure out how).
Holy cow! I had not idea there was so much to understand about the speed of club spin, but it makes a lot of sense! Thank you, everyone who contributed to this thread!!
My very old Dube AB American big belly clubs have a very pleasant slow spin, probably as much from the extra inch as the big belly moves the balance point toward the belly end. That makes for far less throws and less fatigue or overuse injury over the course of an hour unicycle ride, juggling.
I also note that on that table (with the human tibia!!), Dube Knives have the highest Moment of Inertia and the slowest spin, which is kind of nice for something that actually can hurt you even though not sharpened.
Note, the gentleman who made that wonderful table said that the numbers confirm how they feel in the hands. If other people could measure other popular types of club, I'd be delighted to incorporate their results into the table . . . Send him the info!!
The 3 square solid wood clubs were my first, bought by mail in 1973 or 74, from a known juggler. Back then there were only about 300 jugglers in the IJA roster. Paul Kois already had years in and performed regularly. Rich Chamberlain, both from Buffalo like me.
I see them in the Juggling Museum photos of David Cain, too.
https://jugglingedge.com/userfiles/William/clubs1.jpg
https://jugglingedge.com/userfiles/William/clubs2.jpg