Speaking of Bungay Balls Up...
https://jugglingedge.com/event.php?EventID=6049
Add yourself (in hidden mode, if you like) if you're coming along to this year's iteration of the world's longest juggling convention. #BBU2024 #BBU
Little Paul - - Parent #
Alas we can’t do BBU this year, as I’m taking an enormous 70 year old phone exchange camping at https://www.emfcamp.org instead!
We should be back at BBU 2025 though!
Quality time.
I recognized that I have spent more than a year of my life (> 400 days) on circus conventions. That is a lot, but it has been a great year!
So thank you to all organizers and participants who made this a time I appreciate.
Scott Seltzer - - Parent #
Impressive. I've been to around 250 days of conventions: 9 EJCs (9 days), 26 IJCs (mostly 5 days each), a few other international conventions, and a handful of local weekend events.
I always wanted to attend an IJC, but never made it. The stories of those people who attended the event and the videos (Let Them Come - Neta Oren, Toss Up And Sides Again - Ori Roth) made me want to be at this special location.
You have 104 attended events in your JE profile. I'm at 209, so I'd guess I've been somewhere around 2 years in Juggleland. Roll on the next one.
Marvin, could you pick up this piece of p— sorry, I mean, add up all our event-days for us please?
Happy 2 year conventionversary!
209 Events is impressive. I think I met you at EJC 2011 Munich and BJC 2018 Canterbury.
I have been to 8 EJCs and many 4 days events. What impresses me also that almost a third of the events (not days) I took part where abroad. So I am also happy that I could travel to foreign countries.
Your profile will now tell you how many days you've spent at juggling festivals.
& because we are all curious here is the full Festival attendance Leaderboard.
If you haven't updated which festivals you've attended for a while remember you can view the events list in Update attendance mode which adds a column of links to quickly add yourself to lots of festivals.
#NewFeature
It would appear regular Bungay attendees have a distinct advantage in this aspect!
Little Paul - - Parent #
Woohoo! Top 10 baby!
Not bad considering it’s been 5 years since I turned up in person at anything at all
Thanks Orinoco! I suspect me being on top is more due to full record-keeping, 3 virtual BBUs (which, clearly, "don't count"), and a few kendama and yo-yo events being in there too. Plus there are some events I wasn't at for the whole duration, but also a few early ones that aren't on the list, so I reckon I can still claim a full 2 years-worth. But someone younger and keener could easily close the gap with a consistent 5-10 years work. :-)
I guess place 42 isn't bad (nice number at least), considering I have also been to 14 week-long juggling events that aren't even on JugglingEdge. (Because invite only and mailing list.)
Does cancelled events count?
Richard Loxley - - Parent #
Wooo - #1 at 837 days! For now, until other people update theirs and overtake me 😉
4% of my life at juggling conventions. Or 7.6% of my life since I discovered conventions at age 25. Not bad going.
TIL there are "bluetooth" balls which make sounds when caught or dropped (based on strength of impact possibly)
A bloke at work got some for thingmas, he said he has made the catch sound the sounds of a shotgun cocking and the drop sound a shotgun going off
Modern wonders eh ?
What sound(s) would you pick ?
I think I'd go with maybe catch = tick and drop = bomb exploding, so tick tick tick tick ... boom !
or maybe something more peaceful like catch = drip, drop = splash, so drip drip drip drip ... splash
Catch sound: a single clap - get a round of applause for as long as you juggle. And therefore drop sound: "Boo!"
Definitely wouldn't get really annoying really quickly, I'm sure.
I'd go with a duck's quack for a catch & the sad trombone for a drop.
Little Paul - - Parent #
I’m feeling all nostalgic for annoyingly noisy props of the past… so load them up with samples of chatter-rings, shaker cups and “audiballs”
hmmm howabout a mix of Void's and Orinoco's ideas, claps for catches, and wah wah sad trombone for drops
LP, no bleeps and bloops from your telephone exchange ?
Danny Colyer - - Parent #
I'd be tempted by "Sack the juggler!" for the drop.
Information about juggling conventions.
I am really happy for the events page at juggling edge. Information is openly available.
I m not so happy when orgas are using closed plattforms out of their control to organize a convention. Why is information of the coming EJC only available on Facebook? Why do some conventions only inform via x.com, facebook.com, instagram.com? It excludes people who do not want to have an account there. This is something that makes me very unhappy.
</rant>
it is not hard to create accounts on those networks.
as an old event org it would frustrate me that i could never add my event to the 100,000,000 platforms lol.
If people do not want to join platforms where information is held, what do you advise?
I would expect somebody to hold an event to host their own website and provide information about the event there and not in those data silos.
Little Paul - - Parent #
Blimey! Now there’s a name I’ve not seen in a while!
I hope you’re well old chap 😀
Oh well, if we are doing the "I've not posted in for ever" dance - howdy guys..
On a non juggling related matter - local steam railway museaum has the 3rd oldest steam train in existance:
https://stephensonsteamrailway.org.uk/images/900/bzM5-4812-content.jpg
It might not be hard to create accounts on "those networks", but there are those of us who wish to remain off them entirely. Remember, if it's a commercial concern, and what they are providing is free, the product is you.
That aside, instead of having one site and a bunch of fire-and-forget links posted to "the 100,000 platforms lol", you now have a bunch of posts on "100,000 social media platforms lol" that you are going to be expected to reply to. And hopefully a central site that you can maintain, or you have independent posts on "100,000 social media platforms lol" that you're going to have to maintain. Or you restrict it to one, but then you're restricting your membership. Facebook? Only old geezers on there. TikTok? Only teenagers and millennials. TwitterX? The same nazis you'll find on Truth and Gab. Instagram, etc etc etc.
Obviously it's a good idea for an organiser to use those networks, but they're more work IMO. And you won't reach people like me who refuse to even have a mobile phone.
Absolutely Tuffy! You’re not the only one without a mobile. Anyone can set up a website for free at wordpress.com or elsewhere and then advertise it on the SM website of your taste. I suggest you also post it on jugglingedge and put a link to the events page on your website for the rest of the world. The edge has the best list ever.
The very best place for information to be, is the place the most people will read it.
At the moment, that means social media networks.
there will always be some outliers who done use them. there are folk who still dont use the internet at all.
but as an organiser, the effort spend chasing those outliers to solicit half a dozen additional tickets was simply never worth the effort.
I am self employed, have a website, and have social media accounts for my business, i can say with no doubts i would starve if i had to rely on the website for clients, (linkedin is my income provider these days)
a website rarely allows customers to chat/discuss a product etc, there are forums that can be integrated, and again as an oganiser the effort maintaining those, keeping them spam free etc is huge.
you are right though an event should have a website, with the relevant info on there, but the social media networks are simply better for getting information out to the majority of customers.
I'm not suggesting that event organisers shouldn't use the social networks. That would be utterly stupid. What I'm saying is that "the socialz", or worse, one social network in particular, should not be the only means of access to information. Anyone who was hypothetically relying on twatter, for example, would now be somewhat buggered.
FWIW, the information on the EJC is not solely available via farcebook. However, https://ejc2023.org/ is badly ranked on Google and without specifying the year in your query, it's roundly beaten out by last year's convention.
Simon
Ideally information should be available outside of social media. I wouldn't assume that everyone has the knowledge needed to create a website, though. (I don't. I could probably learn how to do it, but it would take some time.) Then you would have to host it somewhere, which I assume isn't free. For big events like the EJC I assume the cost is negligible, but for smaller events with a low budget (or no budget) it might not be. And you need someone who knows how to do it, keep in mind that most events are organized by volunteers.
Now, making a website that has a good ranking on Google... That complicates it even more.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
TwitterX? The same nazis you'll find on Truth and Gab.
To find gangrenous communists where should I go instead?you won't reach people like me who refuse to even have a mobile phone.
Is the problem any signal that a device you own can emit, which allows someone else to have some information about you?
I mean, do you accept the radio?
Just joking! 😀
Little Paul - #
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvqKV4gsapx/
DB97531 looks so pretty with clubs
Juggling Edge vs Facebook groups, Reddit and so on
In your opinion, what makes those rubbish facebook groups on juggling [1] preferable by almost all jugglers to a forum like this, as spartan as you like but in which it is possible to search for everything that has been written without problems, as opposed to FB, where the search results aren't even displayed in chronological order?
Is it just laziness? Comfort zone? "Convenience" of using a single tool to read both your favorite juggler and your aunt showing off her adorable kittens?
Or most of them don't even know of the existence of this site, but at the idea of a space for jugglers only would they agree to register here, and therefore a little "publicity" is desirable?
Does anyone who knows it perhaps fear that this site will end up like JugglingDB, after which the drop in messages on rec.juggling was sudden and inexorable?
[1] certainly not the fault of those who created them but of the platform itself
Little Paul - - Parent #
The Facebook groups started in the vacuum left when ijdb closed, grew because Facebook was “where the people were already” and they’re still active, mainly out of inertia.
Inertia is so powerful that people will stay where there is already a community, even when the platform goes out of its way to make the tools worse. Facebook groups (as a tool) worked much better 18mnths ago before facebook started making them less chronological and more algorithmic.
The user experience of a Facebook group is now tangibly worse than it was, the non-juggling groups I’m a member of are seeing a decline in activity[1] because of that, but people are sticking with it because it’s where everyone else is.
That’s the same reason ijdb lasted as long as it did btw, people stuck around because that’s where other people were. It’s not because the tooling was amazing.
Hot take though - juggling is visual, people don’t want to type words about it, they want to share photos and video. The juggling communities on insta/TikTok/YouTube are excellent, and still very exciting!
Sharing photos/video is harder here, that makes it tough to attract people. You also gave to go get posts, they’re not pushed at you via an app with notifications etc.
That’s not a good or a bad thing, it just lends itself to a different pace, and a different target demographic.
I’m long past thinking there should be “only one place to go for juggling on the internet”
why not just let people get on with wherever they’re happiest. It’s a big world, plenty of space for all sorts of approaches.
I don’t have to consume /every/ post (like I used to do on r.j) which is good, because there’s so much of it these days!
And that in itself is amazing!
[1] with the exception of one group which is growing, because it’s target audience is mostly 70+ and that demographic seem to love Facebook for some reason
I agree about Push notifications (and the rest) - I think that's a big draw to keep you coming back to the same site.
Speaking of evil billionaire site owners, any jugglers here who've jumped ship from Twitter to Mastodon? I'm at https://moth.social/@TheVoidTLMB ...
Little Paul - - Parent #
I’m on mastodon, but not following (or posting) any juggling content.
… and you’re already following all the ones I could name off the top of my head anyway :)
Richard Loxley - - Parent #
I've also moved from Twitter to Mastodon:
@richardloxley@richardloxley.com
aka
https://mastodon.richardloxley.com/@richardloxley
Very little juggling content from me there though!
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
juggling is visual, people don’t want to type words about it, they want to share photos and video
.
But at least in theory people should want to find the videos they liked the most even after some time, and none of the social platforms you mentioned allows it effectively: the closest thing to this are Instagram bookmarks.The juggling communities on insta/TikTok/YouTube are excellent, and still very exciting!
I would rather say that it hasn't distinguished itself from the rest of the "social" communities, and is (better to say "we are") purely consumerist like all that is social: everything is made to last a day, or at most a week. Easily forget what you have seen, so that whoever copies a few months later will be as new and fun as the original and ensure enough views with ads (in the case of YouTube). There really is no communication, unless you define as communication the usual jubilations of two or three words or, rarely, the harsh criticism always of a maximum of one line.
With all its obvious limitations, a newsgroup like rec.juggling also gave way to discussing videos in a more structured way, precisely because it is a purely textual tool, and also to discuss techniques, schematizations and mathematizations: all things very applied in current videos, therefore absolutely current.Sharing photos/video is harder here, that makes it tough to attract people. You also gave to go get posts, they’re not pushed at you via an app with notifications etc.
This is true, it is one of the aspects that could be improved on this forum.
""You also gave to go get posts, they’re not pushed at you via an app with notifications etc."
This is true, it is one of the aspects that could be improved on this forum."
Well...
"Subscribe to this forum via RSS
1 article per branch
1 article per post"
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
"Subscribe to this forum via RSS
1 article per branch
1 article per post"
I'd like something self-sustaining, that doesn't require third-party aggregators.
Where's the "thing"?
It will •) be and stay 'unread' until you mark it as 'read', and •) pushed to the top ( of the index view ). All you have to invest brain energy for is to recognize "your" threads' title(s)
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
If you're referring to RSS, it will always remain just another tool to use: a useless/anachronistic inconvenience.All you have to invest brain energy for is to recognize "your" threads' title(s)
In the hoped-for hypothesis of a growth of this forum, it would be an even greater defect to have to look for the threads in which one intervened.
Nothing serious, of course, I'm writing this just to say that proposing RSS doesn't seem like a winning approach to me.
I meant here on the Edge, ( sry, I should have preseen a possible misunderstanding ).
[ Not exactly an answer, just my mosaïque-stone: ]
I'm here {°} and on reddit ( which has been growing with people subscribing ), because there's lots going on, a melting pot of people, styles, skills, and people are more talkative or simply more people to talk & comment & give feedback, advice an' all.
But several things, I don't like there e.g. bad search function | stupid up-downvoting (I do it too, though) | comments disabled after 6 months; that, apart from lacking any juggling-specific features.
I very much prefer to be here.
{°} - because all you need as an artist, a juggler, a hobbyist, is h e r e - just look at the m e n u above!?
No other site or community offers all that in one place!
oh and ... where does all of what goes viral or breaking news, world records beaten or set up, get crossposted to ... is maybe a major aspect for where to stay tuned.
Forums kinda made NNTP better, and then Facebook makes it all immeasurably worse again. Discord makes IRC worse. "responsive" web design made the web worse. ubiquitous advertising makes everything worse, and companies like Google are trying to make it both ubiquitous and mandatory. We're living in the future, and the future is crap.
Little Paul - - Parent #
Some of the future is amazing though
Lasers are cheaper than shoes!!!
The Complete Homemade Juggling Beanbag Guide
A comprehensive instructional guide and technical treatise on designing and making spherical, paneled beanbags for juggling and footbagging
My website with free download links: https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/
Reddit posts:
2nd Edition: https://www.reddit.com/r/juggling/comments/k669a7/the_complete_homemade_juggling_beanbag_guide/
3rd Edition (latest): https://www.reddit.com/r/juggling/comments/wrt8nx/new_3rd_edition_of_the_complete_homemade_juggling/
Montage of my beanbag designs: https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/Decor/beanbags.png
Hello, jugglers! I am posting here because I have written a document that might interest some of you. It is an extensive guide and technical treatise on how to design and make spherical beanbags for juggling and footbagging. It has been my pet project off and on for many years (it began in the 1990s). The guide documents and other files are free (donation requested) and you can read more about the project and download the files at my website: https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/. I would greatly appreciate any input and advice on this project.
I believe my patterns to be superior to all others I have encountered, including Marylis Ramos' patterns, except for her orange peel and 8-panel octahedron designs, which are almost identical to mine. There are comparison illustrations and discussions in the respective chapter documents.
For those who only want the patterns without all the instructions and other information, I added a compilation of just the patterns. That document is in the "Other Files" category of the Downloads section, and is called "Juggling Beanbag Patterns by Joshua Clifton.pdf".
The following information is excerpted from my web page.
I have tried to make this work accessible to readers lacking technical knowledge, making it easy for them to simply print the patterns and sew the beanbags without having to wade through technical information, yet also include all the information that will enable those with a mathematical background and interest in the geometry and design theories to delve deeper and satisfy their curiosity and understand how these designs are created. The boldfacing I use throughout the documents are an attempt to enable readers to scan the documents quickly and glean the most important information.
The original motivation behind this guide is that nobody (that I know of) provides definitions of the pattern shapes of spherical beanbags so they can be drawn in any size or improved upon. In the case of the typical 32-panel design used for footbags, which is composed of pentagons and semi-regular hexagons, nobody seems to have a good answer to the question of how to size the patterns to produce a desired finished size.
My guide answers that. Each beanbag design document not only includes ready-to-print patterns in six sizes, and instructions for scaling them for other ball diameters, but also formulas to calculate the pattern dimensions for any ball size, and illustrated instructions for drawing the patterns (by hand and with a CAD program). Each design also includes mathematical definitions and structural analyses of the pattern shapes (including four variations of the 32-panel structure), and explanations of how I developed the designs. In Chapter 2 there is a section on figuring out how much you need to adjust the pattern sizes to account for things like gather applied to the seams, or your material choices.
With the exception of the regular polygons, I designed all of the panel shapes myself using math and extensive experimentation. All designs up to the 14-panel use curved edges to produce better spheres, and most of the polyhedral designs have modified face shapes that produce better spheres. I discuss the mathematics and techniques I used to create the designs so that someone with the aptitude for it could follow my process to create new designs, or improve mine.
Examples of my color arrangement diagrams: https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/Decor/colorArrSample.png
My guide documents include the following:
- Information and advice on fabrics, thread, template material, filler, beanbag weight and size, fabric markers, stitching and knotting techniques, and finishing techniques. (Chapter 2.)
- Ready-to-print patterns in six sizes for each design with instructions for scaling the printout for other sizes, formulas for calculating pattern dimensions and step-by-step directions for drawing them (by hand and with SketchUp), illustrated instructions for assembling the beanbags, and 249 illustrated color arrangement ideas including the balls and the assembly layouts (examples above), with 84 arrangements for the 32-panel structures. (In their respective design chapter documents.)
- A list of other people's online tutorials for making juggling beanbags, footbags, and other fabric balls. (In the Introduction.)
- Fabric ball project ideas with photos (Christmas ornaments, decorative centerpieces, baby toys, etc.). (Appendix I.)
- Full, illustrated explanations of how I developed each design and the mathematics behind them, and comparisons to alternate patterns in some cases, including Marylis Ramos' patterns. (In their respective design chapter documents.)
- Examples of other designs and variations. (Chapter 4.)
- A chapter on the theories and mathematics I use to modify polyhedral face angles and to design curves for polygonal panels to produce optimal spheres. It includes tutorials on how to calculate "Isovertex" face angles and on how use the Tangent Chord Angle Theorem to calculate arc radii that produce specified tangent angles at their intersections. Accompanying the latter are explanations and examples of why circular curves do not necessarily work best, and how to design non-circular/Bézier curves that work better (particularly for the orange peel ball). (Chapter 5)
- Step-by-step instructions for drawing spherical polyhedra in SketchUp. (Appendix II.)
- An appendix illustrating how I create the HDR photos of my beanbags. (Appendix III.)
- A list of the juggling beanbag manufacturers whose websites I used as resources for this work. (Appendix IV.)
Hi Joshua,
the first four shapes in the first picture, I have sewn them too. I now prefer sewing 2-panel balls - they've the least longest seam, thus less & faster work to do; but also no meeting points of seams ('T' or 'X').
Those patterns with sizing instructions of yours for the standard 4-panel beanbag might become really useful to me, as I have to go by trial and error for a differently sized ball.
I am, though, sceptical about the efficiency of using ever smaller and smaller upto 32 panels - so much precious lifetime goes into sewing panel by panel bay panel ... a.s.o. (x32) - while of course these then look absolutely greedily ornamental ;o)
Thanks for sharing.
Joshua Clifton - - Parent #
Thanks for replying!
That's true. For pure stitching efficiency, the 2-panel ball is the best. I find it difficult to assemble, though, because I have to continually align concave curves with convex curves. So for optimal efficiency, I prefer the 4-panel orange peel ball, for which I can just lay the panels flat together and sew along the lines (it requires only 13% more stitching). My overall favorite, though, is the octahedron (8 panels, 59% more stitching), because it is still pretty easy and quick to make, and is very round and elegant. The 2-panel and orange peel designs, and even the cube, are a bit squarish with the fabrics I use, and I like a perfect sphere.
I'm guessing the lack of seam intersections is why the 2-panel structure is used for baseballs. It has no weak points and also has the least amount of stitching that could burst.
The designs with more panels are great for their beauty, and some people like to make them because they enjoy the process. But they certainly aren't necessary for juggling, and for me they are very tedious. I might make them if I really wanted an elegant set to juggle with or to impress others, but otherwise I'd stick with the octahedron.
The 32-panel structures (hexagon or triangle versions) are the ones typically used for footbags (Hacky Sacks). My understanding is that people use them because the dense seam structure forms a skeleton that keeps the ball round when half-filled and makes it springy and more responsive to kicks. It's not important for juggling except for those with a passion for beautiful and creative designs. I love the latest one I made, which is the one in the photo, but I sure wouldn't want to make a full set of those!
If you use my patterns, let me know if they produce the sizes I specify. I haven't had the motivation to test the sizing with other fabrics, so I don't know how accurate they will be for whatever you're using. I size them for corduroy, and I've been wondering if other fabrics will size the same way.
Oh yeah, right, sewn folded flat together makes it much easier!.
Have you ever made any out of genuine leather - there different thicknesses available - I had used between 0.7 and 1.4 mm thin\thick - they feel great to touch, to juggle, and just to know they will really last!
In matters of the outcome of the sizing for different fabrics, I think with the same sewing line, the outcome should pretty much be the same, unless maybe for really thick fabric or leather that doesn't easily bend when newly sewn, but should adapt with use.
Joshua Clifton - - Parent #
I've never used real leather, but I made a couple balls with a material called marine vinyl that is 1mm thick and has the surface texture and general properties of moderately stiff leather. I made them for games of catch. We don't have baseball gloves, so I wanted a ball that had the feel and roughly the size of a baseball, but would be softer and a little lighter so we could catch it with bare hands (they're tightly packed with plastic pellets). They work great and are fun to throw, are very durable, and do have a great feel in the hand as you said!
Since the material is thick and stiff, I did not use a seam allowance on the panels, but assembled them edge-to-edge, right side out (I used a single-needle baseball stitch and very strong upholstery thread). Marine vinyl is not as tough as leather, and the stitches need a good bite into the edge so as not to tear through (I made that mistake on a few stitches).
The first three photos are of my 2-panel, baseball-style ball, and the fourth is of my dodecahedron. That was my first one and I don't care for it as much.
https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/forumpics/jugglingedge/Marine%20Vinyl%20Baseball%20Photos%201.jpg
https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/forumpics/jugglingedge/Marine%20Vinyl%20Baseball%20Photos%202.jpg
https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/forumpics/jugglingedge/Marine%20Vinyl%20Baseball%20Photos%203.jpg
https://www.joshuaclifton.com/juggle/forumpics/jugglingedge/Marine%20Vinyl%20Dodecahedron.jpg
For future visitors to this thread, if the above photos are no longer available, you can see the first three in my 2-Panel Baseball Chapter document near the end of the "How I Developed This Design" section (currently page 25), and the fourth, the dodecahedron, in the 1 - Homemade Juggling Beanbag Guide... document, Chapter 2 - General Information and Techniques, "Fabric" section and "Stitching Techniques" section.
• for artificial leather - (of a good kind that doesn't easily rip) - I also found it pretty good and well apt for beanbags; just one property needs being careful about, which is that it melts on contact with fire or embers; which also goes for polyamid sewing thread.
• for sewing concave to convexe &v.v., I mark the four middles of the panels soas to keep adjusting these together while sewing. Or even in case do angled stitches.
• look great, your baseball style balls above. I think, with the middle somewhat thinner, they would become even rounder - the concave part then needs adjusted, though, for the circumference to remain same.
Joshua Clifton - - Parent #
Oh, also, what patterns have you been using? I like to research alternate patterns and see how they compare to mine. Are they available on the web?
No, just private cardboard (lol).
For my patterns, I mainly went by cm of circumference needed, then trial & error for rounding the edges more or less well.
The oldest, classical beanbag's 1 of 4 spindle panels, I got by copying it from a worn off one cut open.
For the 2-panel patterns, there's no strict dimensions, but some variation possible (e.g. for how thin the middle). For the corners, I even optimized with a little 'S'-curve in each round corner of both panels; or call it a little mould. [ alas, I've long not made any and currently have no access to where they might be ] Roughly from memory: https://filebin.net/tecw8b1p1mbq1eej/IMG_20230720_013321_1_3.jpg
two-panel panel with moulds [80 KB]
Joshua Clifton - - Parent #
LOL, I like the caption above the pattern! The S-curves are an interesting design idea. Does that make a rounder ball, or make the "corners" a little less pronounced?
hehe^^ yes. corners less pronounced (thus rounder ball). but it's experimental and maybe not necessary with well shaped or even mathematically calculated roundings of the pattern.
Joshua Clifton - - Parent #
Try my patterns if you feel up to it and tell me how the resulting ball compares to yours. I'm not fully satisfied with the nature of the ball my pattern produces, particularly where you put those notches, and I want to improve the shape, using Bezier curves instead of circular. But I don't know how to design the curves. Maybe your little notches will be a clue to what I need to improve.
I've done some research on the panel shape and even unwrapped a baseball to see what I could learn from that, but I have not yet figured out what an optimal shape would be. I've found very little information on this shape, and there is a lot of variation between different patterns and between those and the real baseball panels. I think different baseballs also use different shapes.
That’s a lot of words! (He says, while probably launching into a lot of words). I’ve only dipped into bits for the moment but it looks like great work. I’ve never understood or explored the mathematical side of beanbag patterns, so it’s good to see an approach coming from the other end of that scale. Though I think a lot of the corner cutting decisions I’ve made make it a little incompatible with my approach.
I used to be known as a beanbag manufacturer. That was 20-odd years ago when the juggling shops didn’t sell underfilled juggling balls. That market has changed a lot! I was using a 4 panel beachball style pattern. It was never particularly round but that was mostly OK because of the fill level. I was probably too reluctant to share my patterns but it never felt like that was the important information for me to share.
These days, I wouldn’t consider anything other than 8 panels. My patterns have been through various size manipulations but IIRC they started out as Marylis’ pattern. I just have a load of pieces of cardboard with cryptic squiggles on them. I sew that pattern by sewing pairs of panels and then continuing with the 4 panel beachball style following the method I put on the web (more on that below). I once had an interesting chat with Gregory from GBallz: his 8 panel approach is quicker than mine. He sews pairs of panels, then sews two twos together to get half balls. He then turns one inside out inside the other (or was that the other way round?) and finishes the inside out ball by sewing those together as one seam. Sorcery! One day I’ll try that, but it doesn’t fit so well with my preferred sewing machine: a hand cranked Singer. The other thing that interested me from that chat is that he said he can make a good six panel ball quicker than an eight panel. Good for him: that’s not how my attempts worked out. I tried six panel rounded squares for one set. I like the result but I had to deal with eight vertices per ball. I found that a lot more difficult than (what felt like) two vertices for my 4 or 8 panel approach. The shape can be good with 6 but 8 works better for less effort. More than eight panels looks great but I’ve never tried it. Partly because of the increased time and difficulty but mainly because of the increased number of reasons for two balls to not be identical.
I see you offer sewing and (optional?) cutting patterns. When I started, I was using a cutting template but I felt that it took too much time for the extra marking, and that the precise positioning of the sewing template within that shape introduced possible error. So I switched to marking one shape and using the sewing machine foot edge as a guide for the seam position. I’m sure that there are issues with that, both mathematically and from an information sharing point of view. But it’s quicker, so for me it wins. Any spherical imperfection seems very slight at this size.
I see that you linked to my old guide on the 2diabolo site. That site is long dead and is now being squatted by people who think it’s fine to throw porn videos at whoever wanders in, so you may want to change that link! I found that out on my phone while sitting between my two small children who fortunately were engrossed in the TV. Thank heavens for Bluey! The best reproduction I can quickly find is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20110810193406/http://2diabolo.net/index.html%3Fpage=14.html
Joshua Clifton - - Parent #
Wow, Dave Barnes of Barnesy Bags! What an honor to meet you here! Your tutorial has been part of the backdrop of this project since near the beginning around 2012! Nice work!
I updated the Barnesy Bags link to the archived version, and updated a few others in the list that were offline. The new version of the document is now on my website. I never saw porn at the old URL, though. Right now I just get a few brief error page redirects and then a blank page. I guess somebody evicted the squatters. Thanks for alerting me to that, though!
Yes, LOL, I have always been very verbose in everything I write. I enjoy meeting others who are the same. I know that it will repel many potential readers, but that's just who I am. However, it might serve a purpose:
I have been a bit concerned that my documents will to a small degree hurt the sales of footbags and juggling bags by the many professional makers, and possibly create new competitors. This may not be a bad thing, but I don't like to hurt small businesses making excellent products, or upset anyone. So perhaps the intense and lengthy nature of my post and my documents will at least filter out the casuals, who will instead continue buying their beanbags. Only the truely dedicated with time on their hands, or the empty of pocket, will make use of it, and those types ought to have a good resource to help them pursue and enjoy this craft, I think.
It's funny that you got started in your hobby/business the same way I did, by being short on cash as a teenager in the 1990s (my timeframe, anyway) and deciding to figure out how to make the 4-panel balls myself instead of buying them! (My origin story is in the 4 & 6-Panel Orange Peel Ball PDF, "How I Developed This Design" section.)
One advantage of the 8-panel over the cube, or any structure with 4-way seam intersections rather than 3-way, is that you can continue the same thread (if long enough) through the entire ball without re-stitching any seams. My assembly methods try to take advantage of that when possible. Tying off threads and starting new ones slows down the process. I don't know how it is with a machine, though.
That's cool that you got to interact with the (I assume) founder of Gballz! That's another long-standing side character in this project. His balls look beautiful ;-) I like his assembly methodology. That would work pretty well. It's very similar to how I assemble some of my panel structures.
As for stitching and cutting templates, I know what you mean. The additional alignment and tracing is tedious and time-consuming. But, at least for hand stitching, and especially for high panel count structures, the combo template idea I developed eliminates the alignment issue and even makes the tracing quicker. It's a stencil on the inside and an exterior template on the outside, all one piece, with tabs around the outer edge to hold it down with (the #1 root PDF, chapter 2, "Making Templates" section has a discussion of the three template types).
http://joshuaclifton.com/juggle/forumpics/jugglingedge/Template%20Types.gif
The interior tracing for the stitching pattern is easier and faster than tracing around the outside of a template, and the exterior/cutting pattern just needs a few sketched lines around the corners between the tabs. The template takes patience and care to cut out (requires an X-Acto knife, and I haven't even tried to make one for a curved-edge pattern), but with a durable plastic it lasts pretty much forever, and it's a great way to draw lots of accurate panels quickly.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
Hello, first of all thank you for this monumental work on making homemade beanbags.
I haven't read it yet, but seeing the size of the PDF and the date you started, as well as all the constant updates you've made, you can tell how much time and inventiveness you've invested in all of this.
I therefore wanted to ask you:
- if you think that even now, with all the numerous models on the market, even quite similar to the homemade ones in terms of shapes, partial fillings and type of fabrics, it makes sense to produce them yourself
- and if you have ever compared your creations with those of the most used brands (Flying clipper, GBallz and all the others).
Thanks again
It may be pride but I like the ones I make more than any others I've tried, and I'm free to experiment. People seem to rave about ultraleather but I don't like it so much. Back when I started making beanbags I think I had a bit of a niche in the market. These days it's completely different: I imagine I could be happy with quite a few of the available options. They'd all be good at gathering dust!
Little Paul - - Parent #
Learning to sew and making your own juggling balls can be as engrossing and enjoyable as learning to juggle in the first place.
It’s not for everyone, but there is absolutely lots of value in making your own props, way beyond the end product.
shipping is expensive.
numerous, but different and very distinct models with other properties than what you need or like.
you want the fill like you want it and the weight that you prefer - and that's where the weight per volume per ball size come in play.
...and also the sizes are standardized. near to no room for own preferences of endless possible combinations of size + material +weight + density + surface + squishyness. always a pain to have to buy balls.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
How many balls do you make yourself? Because to know which size, material, weight, density, surface and squishyness are perfect for you too many attempts you have to make…
I'm not sure, I understood this right.
My best selfmade are of leather, just the cherry pips inside broke, so they are now way too flabby - I'd have to refill them.
"knowing what is perfect for me" - I need 6.0 cm, 80 g, but standard is 6.2 cm, 110 g (Play in Italy online offers to fill e.g. mmx according to your wish).
I saw a Drop Props ball, pretty much my preferences (strong fabric, slightly underfilled, plastic beads filling) and not expensive, but that's US with if at all, expensive shipping to europe.
I bought cheap 6.0 cm beanbags, but they are actually really 6.2 :(
"many attempts" - .. ahm ... yes, I do.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
So you could try the Infinities, size XS (61mm), filled with plastic if you want balls at least 75% filled up or plastic and iron if you want them less than 75% filled. And you decide the exact filling percentage.
Look at this graph: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5ea0717f2eb3e04ba29e7916/64c179017a576a1bd44253ec_61mm.png
Obviously this level of customization means that they cost significantly more than other beanbags on the market.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
Let it be clear that they are not the only ones which allow you to choose the exact weight of the balls. I have indicated these only because they are the ones with the highest degree of customization, but I have never used them: I currently juggle some GBallz I bought years ago.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
you want the fill like you want it and the weight that you prefer
This is currently possible with several manufacturers.
Yes, it's pretty new service. But it works mainly for hybrids only and with notably less filling makes them 'russian'.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
Take a look for example at these Infinity beanbags:
https://www.jugglequip.com/post/infinities-custom-a-complete-guide
You can choose:
- color of the panels
- thread color for stitching
- thread thickness
- size, between 7 diameters
- weight
- filling material (they use two different types of plastic and iron: they avoided millet because it can give allergies), with filling tables that give indications on the weight based on the percentages of fillers chosen.
Thanks for taking the time.
New information for me - I didn't know about Infinities yet.
So, what I see is 18.90 € for one custom ball; seen handmade and guarantee and all that goes into it, service, know-how, --> a fair price, but still luxury; advanced jugglers might need more than one set of upto many balls which makes it a little fortune or call it investment.
For the first selfsewn ball ( after a longer time not making any ), I need 2h or more. A few balls later I have sped the process up to like 75 minutes. Sacrificing a few evenings, I'll have a new super set within less than a week. Assuming, my time were worth 20-30 €, the value of my balls would be roughly the same as bought customs.
Joshua Clifton - - Parent #
Thank you very much for your kind words :-) Your appreciation means a lot.
1) There are three reasons I can see for making one's own juggling bags (the others have mentioned some aspects of these): A) You're poor and don't want to spend the money on a good set, but are adept at crafting (that's why Barnesy and I started). B) You want to customize them in some way that the manufacturers aren't doing. C) You love to make things yourself, and, as Little Paul said, you enjoy the process, creativity, or zen of it, and the satisfaction, pride, and bragging rights of having made a beautiful set of beanbags yourself (especially the high panel count designs!).
2) I have never owned any pro beanbags apart from the original, cheap, Jugglebug cube bags I got when I was very young. They were being sold at a shop where I attended a few juggling lessons. So I do not know how the pro bags compare to mine except for what I can judge from photos and descriptions.
The one exception was many years ago when I attended a juggling function and tried a set of pro bags somebody had. I don't know who made them, but I remember them being single-color corduroy, 14-panel. They were superior to mine in weight, which is how I learned the importance of weight, and started adding metal BBs to the plastic pellets I use. It really improves them. I also preferred the corduroy to the denim I was using and switched.
I have no doubt that many of those companies make products that are at least as good as mine. The only reason mine might be a little better is that I can take the time, if I care to, to perfect the stitching, knotting, and other assembly so that the bags are very durable and elegant. Most mass producers probably cannot take that kind of time - it would make the bags too expensive. (I guess that's a minor 4th reason to make them one's self.)
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
Thanks for the reply. As far as I'm concerned, I believe that reasons A and C are clearly the main ones, given the fair level of customization achieved by some manufacturers.
The only customization I ever met is weight of the millet filling by italian manufacturer Play for hybrids only. It's still millet thus a different volume then. The ball size also stays the same.
You can customize e v e r y t h i n g when making them yourself!
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
No, currently there are several manufacturers that allow you not only to choose the weight (and not only filling with millet, but with plastic granules or metal microspheres or a combination of these, in order to ensure every possible weight and every desired subfill), but also the fabric used.
Ball sizes are usually only 3 or 4, rarely more.
...yet another example: I bought seven of such smaller 5.sth cm 4-panel beanbags in a toy shop; I even tried them out. Now, what happened: of the green, blue, red, white and yellow panels, the yellow ones soon lost their coating leaving the bare fabric. Now the balls are eggshaped :(
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
Of course, as in any market there are bad products, medium quality products and good products.
RegularJugular - - Parent #
I am glad such comprehensive documentation on making beanbags exists. The next time I try to make beanbags I will refer to this.
Thank you
Little Paul - #
Moritz Rosner - 8 clubs, 18 catches (new world record, beating Anthony Gatto by 2 catches)
https://youtu.be/z5rsF1sqKE8
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
As was already written to Moritz: extraordinary achievement, which comes 17 years after that of Gatto (who, let's remember, made 16 catches 3 times in the same practice session, just to make it clear who was the king of the 8 clubs), just a pity that he made it with a 97 siteswap instead of the asynchronous fountain, but with his technique he will soon be able to reach 20 catches with a fountain.
Little Paul - #
While checking some IJA numbers competition stuff just now, I found this page on the JIS http://www.juggling.org/orgs/ija/IRC/
Interestingly nostalgic reading for anyone who was online back then, lots of familiar names (and r.j references)
9 ball reverse cascade qualification.
Argentinian Enzo Nicolas Aguero is the first juggler ever to juggle 9 balls in a reverse cascade for at least 18 catches: what we call «a qualify»¹.
He juggled for 19 catches this pattern which is the most mistreated of the basic patterns, for the majority of jugglers, because of its difficulty.
https://youtu.be/3kSkKuPr6H8 or https://www.instagram.com/p/CtMheXuA5F7/
--
¹ and I didn't understand why: English speakers could you please explain me why we use a verb as to qualify instead of a noun as qualification to refer to a noun? Is it a sort of ellipsis for «juggle to qualify»? Thanks.
Well done Enzo. Thanks for posting, GdD. And yes, it really should be "a qualification", but the verbal form has been abbreviated into a noun. More correctly...
"He's qualified 9"
"That qualifies as a good run"
...but people are lazy. :-)
Little Paul - - Parent #
It (qualify) comes from the IJA numbers competition rules.
I’m not 100% sure when the IJA numbers championships started, but the earliest results set I can find is from 1969 - the language associated with the competition has evolved over at least 54 years.
When competing in each stage of the IJA numbers championships, you have a short period (4mins?) to stand there attempting that number of objects. To pass/qualify for that stage of the competition, a qualifying run has to start within the first 2 minutes.
The IJA website seems to be broken, but here’s a link to the 2017 rules, they’re quite interesting in other ways too https://cdn.ymaws.com/ym.juggle.org/resource/resmgr/docs/2017_ija_numbers_rules.pdf
To be considered able to demonstrate that pattern, and pass qualification, you have to make at least one attempt with a minimum of 2n catches.
So 18 catches of 9 balls means that *you* qualify for that category in the numbers competition.
People are lazy with language, so “able to qualify the pattern” (verb usage, describing the process of passing that competition stage) over time mutated into “a qualify” (noun, describing the minimum pattern that is required for you to pass that stage)
The IJA is less relevant to the wider juggling world now than it was 50 years ago, but the terminology leaked decades ago and is now in general juggling use… so the link isn’t always obvious outside of the USA
..but seriously - I'm currently having problems with the expression 'catches clean, c cl'. It's been used to mean 'dropless, all caught' in distinction to 'but more thrown and maybe caught, but after first drop'.
But often 'all caught, dropless' - what I'm getting in practise - by no means deserves the attribute 'clean', rather 'catches as ugly as possibly can'.
So, I'm now going over to call these what they really are 'dropless' ('dl'?!) and-or 'all caught' ('a c'?!). Even though 'c cl' is so very burnt into everyone's dna. So nothing here can anymore be mistaken to performers who care for the meaning of 'clean', a clean finish or run or performance.
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
Thank you!
Here’s a link to the 2021 rules, where they define a «qualifying run»:to successfully qualify a given number of objects, a competitor (solo or team) must keep the pattern going without a drop long enough for each hand to make as many catches as there are objects being juggled. For instance, in solo juggling of eight balls, each hand must make eight catches before there is a drop; and in two-person passing of ten clubs, each hand must make ten catches before there is a drop.
A greater number of objects cannot be used to qualify a lesser number of objects. For example, 19 catches of 10 rings by an individual does not count as a qualifying run of 9 rings, even though nine of the ten rings were each thrown and caught twice. A qualifying run must be made with the actual number of objects that are being juggled.
I don't understand why now both they and the WJF start the (large) numbers championship with 9 balls instead of 8, but then start the clubs championship with 7 clubs. The world record of 7 clubs is 4 and a half minutes, that of 8 balls just over 1 minute!
Giocoleria da diporto - - Parent #
Correction: They are fortunately backtracking, at least those of the IJA, not Garfield with the WJF:
the 2023 rules returned to 8 balls as the first number allowed, unlike in 2021.
2021 rules:Minimum Number of Objects
There is a minimum number of objects required to be juggled in any event. They are as follows:
Individuals: 9 balls, 9 rings, 7 clubs, 9 balls bouncing
2023 rules:5. Minimum Numbers of Objects
There is a minimum number of objects required to be juggled in any event. They are as follows:
Individuals: 8 balls, 8 rings, 7 clubs, 8 balls bouncing
https://festival.juggle.org/ija-numbers-championships-rules/
I also insert an image since the rules page doesn't report a year in the address and therefore I think it will be updated:
https://ibb.co/423h5dy