The Juggling Edge - Small Talk

#HEJC its ok, the BBC has given it's view on juggling..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8297764.stm

# by hertsessex, 2013-05-20 14:32 BST

I was going to ask if the "juggling makes your grain bigger" story was doing the rounds again in the national media (because I'm at #bungay and the national media isn't particularly prominent amongst the buttercups) but that article you posted was from 2009 anyway :)

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-21 09:06 BST Parent

"Juggling makes your grain bigger"? That'll be one to tell Farmer Paul about!

# by barnesy, 2013-05-21 09:11 BST Parent

Autocorrect win :p

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-21 13:57 BST Parent

I'm all packed for #Bungay & looking forward to some serious rest. I'm looking forward to seeing some of you tomorrow. For everyone else I'll fix everything that breaks when I get back.

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-17 20:40 BST

The site is all ready and waiting for you, the buttercups are a bit short but well have to make up for that with tea and biscuits

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-17 21:19 BST Parent

Jay Gilligan does a TEDx talk on the evolution of juggling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2I1V_MnkI4

(The x denotes a crossing TED talk).

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-16 12:58 BST

Interesting story about why rings are the size they are. I'd not heard that before.

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-16 13:12 BST Parent

Interesting talk. I much prefer traditional props but then a talk on normal balls, rings and clubs wouldn't be interesting, right?

# by Nicholas, 2013-05-16 17:03 BST Parent

Great presentation - I found that *very* entertaining.

I guess most people will have seen Michael Moschen's talk?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS-LyKorcq8

# by Colin E., 2013-05-18 07:56 BST Parent

damn he tall

# by Jamie, 2013-05-20 06:45 BST Parent

Shoulder injuries and Juggling?

Anybody have any words of wisdom concerning juggling and shoulder issues? Recently, with a slight increase in the number of practice sessions per week, my left shoulder has started to hurt a bit. I have toned down the intensity and have been working on non toss juggling skills instead and it doesn't hurt like it did, but, still a bit tender and stiff at times after juggling and when I wake up in the morning.

Have any particular exercises or a stretching regime helped?

Obviously, if I don't get any relief from rest I am going to see the Doc. Just curious if any one else has had similar experiences and what they may or may not have done.

- Warren

# by pompboy, 2013-05-15 18:09 BST

Gold+ standard advice is: if it hurts, stop it. If it still hurts, go consult a doctor or a sports physio.

Shoulder/wrist/toe injuries are really hard to diagnose over the Internet, even for qualified medical professionals. What worked for one persons injury may make another persons injury worse. Get seen in person, and you'll get advice tailored to your specific injury.

Once you've done that, and got better, video yourself juggling from the front and the side. A lot of these types of injuries seem to be caused or encouraged by poor posture or technique and video will make that visible. Fix the injury and the technique and you'll reduce the risk of injuring yourself again.

I know you really wanted "do these stretches" but I honestly believe getting seen in person is the only way to go!

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-15 18:23 BST Parent

Be careful stopping too much, I found resting an injury (because of intense pain) prolonged recovery when gentle exercise would have helped. That was for a sprained wrist and dislocated shoulder after a traffic incident (so slightly different), but I lost almost a year of juggling because of bad advice from doctors and it took me several months of going through several doctors to get the correct diagnosis, some pain killers that worked and some treatment that gave me some mobility back.

Don't rely on advise from the internet, but also don't settle for the first medical opinion you get, in my experience 6 out of 7 doctors cannot diagnose a shoulder injury correctly.

# by Mïark, 2013-05-15 19:22 BST Parent

Thanks for the sage advice. If things don't improve with rest I will go and see some Docs and see what they suggest. Darn...I thought there was a shoulder injury magic bullet in here somewhere! :-)

cheers - Warren

# by pompboy, 2013-05-16 18:34 BST Parent

So I guess talking about juggling is now acceptable! :D

I got my longest run of 5 balls yesterday. 410 catches, clean and almost effortless. Should I move on to 5 rings before 6 & 7? I've spent months working primarily on the 5 ball cascade so I have the feel for the cascade. Also, I've never seen anyone perform 6 objects (except Pavel Evsukevich). So is it even worthwhile learning?

As a general rule, how good do you have to be to say you've mastered something? 10 x in a row? On demand? And where I spent 30 minutes a day just on 5, should I spend that much time on 6 and 7? Because 5 balls can be learned in a few months but 6 and 7 can take a year or more. (From what I've heard). Tell me about your experience with numbers!! Thanks!

# by Nicholas, 2013-05-15 13:17 BST

I think you should move on to whatever takes your fancy! The wonderful thing about juggling is that there's no set progression. You want to learn 5 rings? Learn 5 rings. Want to learn 6/7 balls? Great! Learn 6 or 7 balls!

The skills aren't even mutually exclusive, so you can learn 5 rings and 6 balls and 7 balls all at the same time (well not *literally* at the same time, that would be 18 objects and that's a bit hard)

In my book, if no one performs something, that makes it *more* worth learning. Why would you want to perform the same thing everyone else does? Sounds like sheep thinking to me :) - besides, if you're thinking about performing I think you should start performing as soon as possible. It's a skill like anything else, you'll suck at first then get better with practice. Unfortunately, it's kinda tricky to practice it without an audience.

As for "how good do you have to be to say you've mastered something" - for me, I've mastered something when I can pick up the props and do the trick for as long as I want to, first time. Some people say "you've mastered it when you've got 1000 catches" or some other arbitrary limit, but in my experience I know when I've mastered something. I just *know*

Hope some of that's useful :)

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-15 16:52 BST Parent

It's as acceptable as it will ever be.

I'm bored of 5 rings, 6 & 7 balls so don't bother learning any of them... unless you can do something new & interesting with them in which case definitely learn that. If you enjoy juggling those numbers this is also a very good reason to spend time learning them.

As for how long you should spend practising, spend as much time as you have enthusiasm for. With 5 balls I spent probably 2 hours a day for a couple of weeks. For 6 balls I forced myself to do an hour a day every day which I did for a whole year, which in hindsight was almost a complete waste of time (I did learn how not to learn which was useful). I really enjoyed learning 5, I was really enthusiastic about it & success was almost immediate for me I was regularly qualifying within a couple of days. With 6 I got to 200+ throws but it was really hard work & I didn't enjoy it. I mastered 5 very quickly but I can still only 'juggle' 6. If I don't enjoy practising something I know I won't learn it well.

My definition of mastered is similar to LPs in that I must be able to start and stop at will. Meaning pick up the prop & run the trick first time for as long as I want then finish cleanly.

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-15 18:37 BST Parent

Congrats on the 410 catches of 5. That must be almost 2 minutes - Definitely a pretty solid pattern! Have you learnt much in the way of tricks or siteswap with 5?

I would suggest learning 5 rings, 6 balls and 7 balls all at the same time. And six objects is definitely worth learning! It lacks the incredible difficulty of 7 when it comes to tricks and siteswaps, while being enough balls in the air that it feels like you're juggling improbable numbers. And hey! I do 6 ball stuff in my act. Plenty of people out there are doing stuff with 6!

Where you spent 30 minutes a day just on 5, split it however you like best. 10 minutes on 7 (or more) would probably be good though.

"Tell me about your experience with numbers!!" - Numbers are very very very very very hard.

# by Mats1, 2013-05-15 21:04 BST Parent

You all have been very helpful! It's awesome to get feedback and insight.

I had no idea that you can work on different numbers/props. I usually have a one track mind and do something until I get it. Not the best way to practice I suppose, but I always learn faster than I expected to.

Personally I'd rather watch 5 than 6. Lot more tricks with 5 than with 6 & 7. But I want to be a good juggler so I stretch myself. Balls will always be my favorite, but I do want to get into clubs and rings as well. The variety is interesting.

I like the various definitions of mastery. I'm not quite there yet of course, but a month ago I couldn't do 100 catches. Now I can do it almost every time. I haven't learned any site swaps (my ceiling is two feet taller than my head which made learning 5 very difficult.) Half shower is taking lots of time to learn. I can get 10 over the top and then the whole thing crashes.

# by Nicholas, 2013-05-15 22:09 BST Parent

Don't worry about the half shower. A friend of mine who is absolutely mega beast at 5 ball siteswaps still has trouble running the half shower.
Good luck with 6 and 7 balls :)

# by Rob van Heijst, 2013-05-15 22:48 BST Parent

Mega beast at 5 ball siteswap and struggles with half shower? Are you sure this friend of yours isn't joking???

If the ceiling is only two foot above your head, learning half shower, reverse cascade and 645 should be fine. Do you have a place to practice 6 & 7 balls that is different though? Learning those under such circumstances will be tremendously difficult! Same for 5 rings...

# by Mats1, 2013-05-17 23:34 BST Parent

I guess we all have different learning curves

# by Rob van Heijst, 2013-05-19 13:57 BST Parent

Perhaps not so relevant for numbers, but for me, no 3b juggling stuff can ever be mastered. Anything can be always adjusted slightly by alternating speed/rhythm or changing the shape. Rather than mastering something I think of it in terms of when I can do it comfortably enough to utilise it for something.

# by pumpkineater23, 2013-05-23 14:20 BST Parent

Akihiro Yanai - truly awesome contact routine from Japan's JJF 2012.

Apologies if it's glasscock, but you have to admit it's still mindbogglingly great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-veNIp9dBL4

# by Cedric Lackpot, 2013-05-11 00:54 BST

Not that amazing, he's from Japan and all Japanese can do this.

Humor aside, this is a fantastic routine! I don't do contact but there's just something about watching it that is so peaceful. Thanks for sharing!

# by Nicholas, 2013-05-11 03:54 BST Parent

I love the sounds the audience make. There's nothing quite like the incredulous nervous laughter of a room of jugglers.

# by Sadie, 2013-05-11 10:25 BST Parent

Just fantastic.
Thanks for posting that. Sadie, you're right, those noises are great, and completely appropriate for that routine!

# by AnnaBod, 2013-05-12 00:05 BST Parent

That was great! Really *really* nice tricks do e really well. Loved the 2ball section. I only spotted two drops, but they were so well handled I could easily have missed them :)

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-12 07:13 BST Parent

He turned up to Turbo Fest this year, almost completely buy surprise. He first contacted us to be in the show, but we were already full (and then some!). Then at the fest, he just arrived! He paid his own way from Japan, just to come and see it, and ended up doing something on renegade which had EVERYONE asking "was that the guy from YouTube".

Fun times.

# by Norbi, 2013-05-12 17:20 BST Parent

I contacted him before asking if we were full actually :3
Sometimes errors pay off...

# by Emman, 2013-05-13 00:13 BST Parent

*like*

# by Norbi, 2013-05-13 00:15 BST Parent

"Contacted"...

There's a pun in there somewhere...

# by Nicholas, 2013-05-13 05:26 BST Parent

I really want to make it to turbo at some point. It's one of the few fests I'd be willing to fly half way round the planet for. (if doing so wasn't so expensive;)

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-13 12:11 BST Parent

I had no idea what glasscock meant, never seen the photo until just now.

# by pumpkineater23, 2013-05-14 11:05 BST Parent

It was arguably a bit lazy of me to use the term without context, but so many Edgizens also read b3ta that it was safe to assume that most people would understand it. I'm glad to have introduced you to the term!

# by Cedric Lackpot, 2013-05-14 12:13 BST Parent

I think the number of b3tans on The Edge is probably fairly small in proportion to the total number of users (although some of the more vocal posters are also b3tans)

For anyone still unclear about the meaning of "glasscock" there's a definition here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=glasscock which has reminded me how much fun it is to muck about on urbandictionary... there goes the rest of my afternoon!

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-14 15:41 BST Parent

Neither had I. Now I am scarred for life.

# by Nicholas, 2013-05-14 18:31 BST Parent

I usually warm up with 3 clubs by doing 20 catch runs of singles then doubles then triples then quads. I make sure there are no wrong end catches, no shuffling & I throw with a nice even rhythm. I noticed last night that when going from singles to doubles it took me a few throws to settle into the correct rhythm, but oddly not when going from doubles to triples to quads. So I spent some time ironing that out by going back to an exercise which Sean Gandini talked to me about in 2002 where you juggle 8 singles then 4 doubles. Both sections of throws should take the same amount of time to complete when done well.

When not playing some sort of musical instrument Laurence was working on his devilsticking after being inspired by Steve Ragatz at the BJC. Simon was working on doing a pirouette while maintaining a chin balance, Cat was still playing with his parasol, I helped Karina continue with her passing education & Kev seems to be making good progress with 5 clubs. Hopefully he will be able to avoid severing a main artery with his throwing knives long enough for him to get a consistent qualify.

#twjc

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-09 13:03 BST

"8 singles then 4 doubles. Both sections of throws should take the same amount of time to complete when done well" - interesting exercise. I don't think I've ever tried that one.

I'll add it to my list of "things to not quite get around to trying at #bungay"

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-09 15:15 BST Parent

It made up a section for a routine Sean was choreographing for a local festival. We did the sequence in pairs, one starting on singles the other doubles, the aim being to keep the changes in synch. If you'd like a partner to keep time with I'll be there maybe after I've finished playing a board game, or after I've played croquet, or I may just read my book amongst the buttercups...

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-09 18:06 BST Parent

Hi All,

I'm new to the juggling edge, not so new to juggling. If youre ever in Israel over the summer stop by our weekly juggling meet.

Uri

# by Uri Zaltzman, 2013-05-05 16:00 BST

Hi Uri,

Thanks for the invite, am guessing your weekly juggling meet is Circus Playtime - the Jerusalem juggling meeting #Jerusalemjugglingmeeting

You will find people without facebook accounts cannot see your facebook groups page, at York Jugglers we tried to get round this by having an facebook organisation page as well, as these are viewable to non-facebook users (at the moment) but not sure having to have more facebook pages might be confusing for people. Hopefully the travelling jugglers will see your Juggling Edge listing with e-mail address and phone number.

Slightly envious that you have nice enough weather to have an outdoor regular meeting at 8 in the evening

# by York Jugglers, 2013-05-05 16:27 BST Parent

Hey hello Uri.

# by pumpkineater23, 2013-05-07 17:26 BST Parent

Hi Uri, welcome aboard!

I've heard great things about the Israeli Juggling Festival, have you ever been? Also (bit of a longshot) do you know Itsik Orr?

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-05 17:58 BST Parent

FYI - Itsik has changed his name to Kulo. He's still on the juggling scene. His finale in the Israeli show at IJC was absolutely brilliant.

# by Scott Seltzer, 2013-05-05 20:44 BST Parent

Just curious, is this the act he performed? It's very cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJrT1_SldMc

# by Nicholas, 2013-05-06 03:48 BST Parent

Yes, it's a new and much improved version of that concept.

# by Scott Seltzer, 2013-05-06 12:09 BST Parent

So I'm thinking of getting a set of silicones.

I was recommended http://www.siliconeballs.com/ does anyone have experience with them? They're really cheap which is great but I'm not sure if the quality is going to be as good as the ones from other retailers...

Also, what size would people recommend? I currently have ~63mm G-force balls bu am thinking maybe a size or two smaller as I've been doing a lot of numbers stuff (8-10 balls).

58mm seems like it might be too small though, has anyone used 58mm bounce balls?

# by Adrian G, 2013-05-04 09:29 BST

As far as I can tell, siliconeballs.com appears to be Dave Spotlight - and I wouldn't buy silicones from anyone else.

What he doesn't know about silicones isn't worth knowing.

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-04 09:44 BST Parent

Cool, thanks for the reply. I was slightly suspicious as they're cheaper than the G-force ones I got (though admittedly the G-force ones had a high price markup). Anyway it's good to know that it's someone that people have heard of that's running it.

# by Adrian G, 2013-05-04 09:56 BST Parent

I say "as far as I can tell" - I'm putting a lot of trust in what the site claims - I notice that they're significantly cheaper than jugglestore (which is *definitely* Dave) although they do mention jugglestore/spotlight everywhere.

Does anyone else know for sure?

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-04 10:16 BST Parent

It's linked to the facebook profile of David Marchant (but it has davidspotlight in the url so I assume it's the same person). Anyway, we'll see what others say...

# by Adrian G, 2013-05-04 10:42 BST Parent

Yup, David Marchant = Spotlight.

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-04 10:48 BST Parent

In which case they're a bloody bargain at those prices!

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-04 14:08 BST Parent

The G-force balls are compressed rubber rather than silicone so I'm really surprised they were more expensive. Where did you buy them from?

I'm sure you've already tried silicones given the level that you are practising at but just in case you haven't you'll probably find that the compressed rubber balls have a higher return than silicones. Silicones are *not* the best ball in terms of bounce. For me their major selling point is their consistency, wonderful feel & their excellent long lasting (providing you look after them) visual appearance.

I had a set of 2.5 inch silicones a few years ago which I used mostly for toss juggling. I ended up selling them on. While I agree that they are absolutely the best type of juggling ball money can buy I also think they are over-rated & not worth the price unless you are a performer.

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-04 10:47 BST Parent

Yeah, I got the G-force ones from JuggleArt in Melbourne, Australia and because they have to import them all and don't sell a large amount of them, they tend to have higher prices than would be expected. However, if you get them from Play directly then they're much cheaper, but I didn't get them all at once so shipping would have made that more expensive anyway...

Yeah, I think G-force ones at least have a slightly higher bounce, but really not enough to be a big deal (at least I don't find that silicones have 'too low' a bounce). However I find that silicones do have a slightly nicer bounce however, even if it isn't as high.

But yeah, I definitely wouldn't get them just for the bounce but, even ignoring the feel and long life, they also are a bit more grippy which is useful when starting and ending high numbers and I need a new set of bounce balls anyway so instead of getting a set of G-force which won't last that long I might as well get silicones for around 1.5 times the price which will last much longer.

I'd normally agree that they're expensive enough that it might no be worth it but siliconeballs.com seems cheap enough that I think it would be.

# by Adrian G, 2013-05-04 11:11 BST Parent

They also have much better grip if you're doing things like adding "English" (spin) to a ball. I've never really got that to work with rubber balls (eg oddballs, which are incredibly similar to g-force balls)

Oh, and they make a lovely noise if you hold them to your ear and tap them with a fingernail :)

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-04 14:11 BST Parent

"Oh, and they make a lovely noise if you hold them to your ear and tap them with a fingernail :)"
Definitely the most important characteristic of a juggling ball :P

I don't do that much stuff with spin but that's a good point as well. I actually didn't use silicones at all when I was originally trying to add spin so I got used to the small amount that you can put on g-force balls, and then I tried it with some silicones and realised why it had never worked quite as well as it should have.

# by Adrian G, 2013-05-04 14:22 BST Parent

I can't believe I didn't mention the silicone ping!! Easily one of my favourite noises (a list that includes a duck's quack & a cat's purr).

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-04 14:25 BST Parent

So I borrowed some silicons from a friend to try out and work out what size to get, he had two types, one were the more standard type (white) and had the same bounce as my g-force ones, the others (coloured) had a significantly higher bounce which seemed strange. I also thought that while silicones were meant to bounce better than coloured ones.

However in general I've found that silicones do bounce lower, so I'm not sure what's different with these...

# by Adrian G, 2013-05-10 13:03 BST Parent

Not all sillies are the same when new; as they get older their properties can vary even more.

I have a large set of white Spotlight sillies of various sizes, which were given to me by David Marchant (aka Dr. Spotlight) for a workshop set. They are very much seconds since they all have blemishes which make them unsellable, but they are nevertheless made of good quality silicone. I also have a set of yellow Spotlight sillies which I bought as cosmetic seconds, i.e. visibly imperfect but they perform like a first quality ball. The weird thing is that the white ones feel significantly softer and squishier than the yellow ones, and have a noticeably poorer return ratio than the yellow ones, despite being made form the same basic material, by the same manufacturer. This seems consistent with your experience.

I am also a balloon modeller, and the difference that the various dyes make is marked. Good quality modelling balloons are made out of natural latex, with vegetable dyes added to create the basic colours, and presumably somewhat fancier dyes for various options such as metallic and neon finishes. The softest compound of all is the undyed ones, which appear milky white when uninflated, and almost completely translucent and colourless when blown up. The plain colours are the next softest; then the neons; and then the metallics. I have no idea what causes the difference but I am certain that it's the dyes that are responsible, and I wouldn't be the lest bit surprised if that sort of effect happened to sillies too.

# by Cedric Lackpot, 2013-05-10 16:57 BST Parent

Yeah, the white ones I tried also seemed a bit softer. I suppose it's just strange because I've always heard that white ones bounce slightly better due to the coloured ones having to be dyed.

Interesting, I haven't really done much with balloons so I've never really thought about the difference between different ones. That makes sense though, I'd be interested to know exactly what it is about the dyes that does it (or if it's just that the consistency changes)

# by Adrian G, 2013-05-11 12:37 BST Parent

Sup,

I'm back after several years of inactivity. Kinda sad to see the IJDB down after all this time, but it's nice to see that the community is still strong and continuing on.

I'll try to post more over the coming days.

Juggle on!

# by DMarden117, 2013-05-03 17:03 BST

Yay! Nice to have you on board dan!

Have you juggled at all during your gap?

# by Little Paul, 2013-05-03 18:08 BST Parent

Hi. Am I correct in remembering you as a pretty sweet multiplexer?

# by Jamie, 2013-05-03 20:10 BST Parent

Hi Dan, glad to have you back. Where've you been?

# by Orinoco, 2013-05-03 21:06 BST Parent

Hello. Last I remember you were living in Singapore was it?

# by pumpkineater23, 2013-05-03 23:59 BST Parent

Hi Dan. Welcome back. I met you at one of the BJCs and went to your multiplex workshop.

# by peterbone, 2013-05-07 10:55 BST Parent